For those interested in AMM

[Eyeman]

Would you rather have a Pure breed or hybrid?
The same argument takes place in other animal lines.
As us beekeepers have difficulty controlling the mating of our stock and coming to a consensus of opinion my money is work to improve the quality of a local hybrid.

 

[Swarm]

Yes. We've been through all of this before. Even humans aren't native/indigenous to the UK. It only depends how far back you want to go. So, if an introduced species can become native simply by occupying an area for a period of time, even non-natives can eventually be considered native.

That's just it, it can't as it was introduced, something quite different from migration.

 

[mazzamazda]

Which part? NI is in the UK.

(Southern) Ireland, same as the post.

 

[B+.]

Are any of the desirable traits recessive? So they may be present in the genotype but absent from the phenotype.

Quite possibly.
e.g. I am trying to develop VSH in carnica using single drone insemination. It is painfully slow work so you need to be dedicated and patient. Hence my question about who would do this work in Amm.

 

[B+.]

As us beekeepers have difficulty controlling the mating of our stock and coming to a consensus of opinion my money is work to improve the quality of a local hybrid.

Paradoxically, the best way to improve the average performance of your local hybrids is to introduce a large number of above average drone mothers. The only way you'll get those is from a breeding programme.

 

[Finman]

The Hybridised bees are designed to have a very narrow gene pool... and seemingly as narrow minded as some of their owners.

Yeghes da

Sexual reproduction = hybridization is meant to keep gene pool wide. From what heck you invent the hybrid genepool is narrow?

The whole nature tryes towards mixing genes. But beekeepers love term pure. What means pure?

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[B+.]

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Every one knows that a bee is not "pure" after first mating in open mongrel environment.

This is not entirely accurate: A queen and her drones would remain pure in the first generation. Only her female progeny (workers and daughter queens) would be mongrels

 

[Finman]

Quite possibly.
e.g. I am trying to develop VSH in carnica using single drone insemination. It is painfully slow work so you need to be dedicated and patient. Hence my question about who would do this work in Amm.

As German researchers found out in their 1.2 million € project, that hive has only 1% bees, which notice mites under brood cap, and break the cap. You are really lucky if you happen to get such larva onto your grafting needle. One out of hundred graftings.

 

[Finman]

This is not entirely accurate: A queen and her drones would remain pure in the first generation. Only her female progeny (workers and daughter queens) would be mongrels

Not accurate but practically it is so. You rear pure virgins and they mate over the mongrel village. What is the meaning of pure now?

When guys have some hives on the backyard, theories do not work there.
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[Eyeman]

Paradoxically, the best way to improve the average performance of your local hybrids is to introduce a large number of above average drone mothers. The only way you'll get those is from a breeding programme.

You've hit the nail on the head. Difficulty is finding any place isolated enough for your drones to make a difference. It wouldn't work in any of my out-apiaries. And good intensions seem to go by the wayside when life gets in the way.
Anybody out there in the Manchester area interested in trying to get some controlled mating?

 

[B+.]

That's just it, it can't as it was introduced, something quite different from migration.

This is just semantics. I grant you that "introduction" involved a conscious decision and "migration" may simply require a geographic connection to the natural range. However, both are inappropriate in a discussion about "native" species.

 

[kevrhcfag]

You've hit the nail on the head. Difficulty is finding any place isolated enough for your drones to make a difference. It wouldn't work in any of my out-apiaries. And good intensions seem to go by the wayside when life gets in the way.
Anybody out there in the Manchester area interested in trying to get some controlled mating?

Probably be putting my hand to AI / II next year at some point but looking at a practice / experience year really.

Also been getting the main apiary upto scratch with known parentage BF's their open mated daughters and other F1's from good sources. Culled everything out beginning of last year and will be fairly ruthless again. Putting enough drone comb in to hopefully have a sporting chance of making a difference to my stock. Another season of building and acquiring different lines next year. Pleased with the results so far, bees placid, strong and healthy enough. But its takes time and, a lot of patience and learning and a bob or two.

 

[Finman]

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Quite a job to keep those AMM pure.

 

[Teemore]

Just to keep things "on thread" , it is nice to see that jack is finally in a position to issue press releases about his research findings. I look forward to reading his published research report in the near future.

 

[mbc]

You've hit the nail on the head. Difficulty is finding any place isolated enough for your drones to make a difference. It wouldn't work in any of my out-apiaries. And good intensions seem to go by the wayside when life gets in the way.
Anybody out there in the Manchester area interested in trying to get some controlled mating?

Not if the introduced drone mothers produce drones which are at odds to the majority of virgins in the air in an area, ok many queens will do well through hybrid vigour but this only leads to messing up the gene pool and producing variable mongrels in the longer term.
What is needed are above average drone mothers compatible with the virgins which will be in the air in a given area.

 

[mbc]

Just to keep things "on thread" , it is nice to see that jack is finally in a position to issue press releases about his research findings. I look forward to reading his published research report in the near future.

Indeed, well done the lad and I am also looking forwards to reading it when it comes out in full.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Yes. We've been through all of this before. Even humans aren't native/indigenous to the UK. It only depends how far back you want to go. So, if an introduced species can become native simply by occupying an area for a period of time, even non-natives can eventually be considered native.

Since the UK is a human construct, it's a bit of a reach to suggest that the creator of the thing is not native/indigenous to it. This is neither a theological matter, nor one of natural history.

Secondly, the idea of 'occupying an area for a period of time' is not a sufficient condition for a thing to ever be considered native.

The bee whose brooding, foraging, and storing characteristics are most evidently adapted to our soggy, foggy islands are native in a way that imports are not.

Regardless of higher yields and fewer stings, or how important and desirable those things may be to humans.

 

[Show me the honey]

Any positive publicity is welcome in my book! I had no interest in bees till I saw an article on Cornish bees, then read a bit more on it one thing led to another and I now have 2 hives and love it!! The knock on from that is my circle of friends had never spoken about bees yet now 1 is starting up this spring and others all come in saying how they bought this plant or that tree for bees. It's surprising how interested people get but never have the time!

 

[B+.]

Since the UK is a human construct, it's a bit of a reach to suggest that the creator of the thing is not native/indigenous to it. This is neither a theological matter, nor one of natural history.

Secondly, the idea of 'occupying an area for a period of time' is not a sufficient condition for a thing to ever be considered native.

The bee whose brooding, foraging, and storing characteristics are most evidently adapted to our soggy, foggy islands are native in a way that imports are not.

Regardless of higher yields and fewer stings, or how important and desirable those things may be to humans.

Mankind didn't "make" the island. However, if it pleases you to think we did, so be it.
Let me pose a scenario for you. I was born and grew up in the North-East of England. My parents and grandparents did too (I believe the statement holds true for several generations prior to that, but, we'll leave it at 3 generations). I now live in Bedfordshire where my 3 sons were born and have lived here all of their life.
Am I not native to the North-east, but, resident in Bedfordshire. What of my sons? Are they not native to Bedfordshire?
Words like this are merely labels to hang an idea on. The idea of belonging to a place, or originating from it. My sons are native to Bedfordshire while I am not.
The point is that if you're born in a place, you're a native of that place. In the same way, one of my carniolans that was born here, was mated / inseminated here and makes her colony here is native to here. She's not a native of some other place (i.e. Germany / The Netherlands) where her mother, grandmother or great grandmother came from because she has never even been there. In that sense, my carnica queens are every bit as native to the UK as those Amm that were imported from some other place.
If you mean to imply that Amm is more adapted to the conditions here, I would ask you to show me an Amm colony that performs like this (https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3832). Is this not evidence of being suited to my local conditions? I think it is. My carnica performs better here than any of the local mongrels which, by your argument, should be better adapted.
These weasel words "native", "locally adapted", etc are really beginning to annoy me. They are loaded with an implied merit that the stock simply doesn't live up to. Beekeepers want gentle bees that don't sting the living daylights out of them, don't swarm excessively, are quite productive and are resistant to common pests and diseases. In a nutshell, that's it. They don't care about where a bees ancestors came from

 

[Finman]

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Bees' genome doest not change so fast that they are locally adapted in every place.

There are so much characteristics, which must be changed, that it is not possible.

If I order Italian bees via post, they adapt at once here locally. Actually they have such genes what they have. If we order queens from NZ Italian bees, they have such genes that they all die next winter. They do not have time to adapt.