FIT subsidies for solar panels

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Brosville

Queen Bee
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News is just coming in that the government has lost it's appeal, and it appears that they must now allow the "fits" scheme to run at the higher rate for another few weeks - check first, but it's looking good if you missed out before.....
 
They are now seeking appeal at the supreme court. You could install and hope that you are lucky. Having said that it still gives a good return even at the lower rate.

The problem is that nobody knows what is happening to the scheme as a whole. I have planning permission for a 50Kw wind turbine. Because of the delay i don't know what FiT rate i will be able to claim when it is commissioned. I am not going to leap off the cliff into the unknown so to speak
 
It's a shambles. They first had a closing date of April 2012, then suddenly pulled out the stakes and it was December 2011 and now you say that it has been extended by a few weeks.

How can anyone be expected to take such a scheme seriously when the participants are getting jerked around so much. No one in their right mind sets out to gamble blindly with their assets, so how can the government keep changing the rules so?
 
Shambles indeed......

All these half baked plans to win "free energy" from expensive photo voltaic and wind turbines are seriously not cost effective. The saving of CO2 emmissions is a non starter as the amount of CO2 emmitted by the lorry bringing the PV or wind turbine from the docks to site ( in the calculations I did from Harwich to Helston) by diesel lorry, can never be recouped, let alone the manufacture.......

IMO we should be investing in a giant underwater turbine by blocking the English Channel between Dover and Callais and using the tide!

OR investing in sustainable nuclear power based on another isotope other than Uranium.. that is running low due to irridiots trying to build weapons from the stuff!


For now... where are my beeswax candles?
 
"All these half baked plans to win "free energy" from expensive photo voltaic and wind turbines are seriously not cost effective" - is seriously misleading - to buy turbines or pv panels is obviously more expensive than using coal in the short-term, but the important thing is that they replace the planet-wrecking damage that burning fossil fuels wreak on the environment - nuclear power is even more expensive, can't be online in time to fill the yawning energy gap, and could only provide a tiny proportion of our energy needs (it's essentially an expensive white elephant that's only back on the agenda thanks to very effective lobbying by the nuclear industry)

The important thing with renewable energy is to look at how fast the technology "repays it's embodied energy" - with pv panels it's about 3 years, wind just over a year* - as such they are very effective at "doing what they say on the tin".

IF you can get the higher rate for a pv array, it's financially very attractive, as it can give 12% or more return on capital - even the new lower rate will give around 6% (which is around double what you'll get from a bank), so it is both financially attractive, and really does play a part in fighting climate change (after the initial 3 years "paying back" the energy used in their making, they will probably produce effectively "free" electricity for another 50 years)

To put this sort of investment in perspective, we're probably looking at a sum of under £10k - spread over 50 years, it's peanuts, and in comparison, that sort of sum will rapidly get written off on car depreciation in a very short space of time........

* I have worked within the industry, and have costed medium sized turbines (which are not as cost-effective as the biggies), and even down here in the relatively windless south they pay back financially within a very few years, and repay their embodied energy (the important part) in just over a year...
 
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Interestingly, ErDF pays the customer back 5 times what they would have paid in electricity, if photovoltaique panels are installed and the surplus elec sold back to ErDF.
Making it very cost-effective, at least to the consumer.
I doubt it will last, though!
 
Shambles indeed......

All these half baked plans to win "free energy" from expensive photo voltaic and wind turbines are seriously not cost effective. The saving of CO2 emmissions is a non starter as the amount of CO2 emmitted by the lorry bringing the PV or wind turbine from the docks to site ( in the calculations I did from Harwich to Helston) by diesel lorry, can never be recouped, let alone the manufacture.......

IMO we should be investing in a giant underwater turbine by blocking the English Channel between Dover and Callais and using the tide!

OR investing in sustainable nuclear power based on another isotope other than Uranium.. that is running low due to irridiots trying to build weapons from the stuff!


For now... where are my beeswax candles?

:iagree:
We could incorporate the channel tunnel into the scheme and finally make it useful!

Anyone who seriously believes that wind turbines will save the world is seriously cuckoo - it is just a money making industry for the fat cats subsidised by the tax payer.
The government made a serious mistake by not supporting the investigation of tidal power - such a scheme should have been integrated into the second Severn crossing, but the tories were more concerned in making sure the investors in the French company they gave both bridges to had a good return.
They also didn't forge on with hydro power - look at that fantastic scheme they had in North wales in the 70's
But no windmills are far more fashionable and excite sandal wearing hand wringing brigade
The environmental impact of getting these windmills on to the mountains is massive and most of the times the turbines are feathered because the winds 'aren't suitable' then when there is no wind they pump electricity into them to keep the vanes turning or the motors seize!
and how much fossil fuel do they burn producing the massive amount of concrete they need as foundations for these monstrosities.
GET REAL!

The first night back in your own bed after a fortnight at sea always makes me grouchy! I can now go out and do my duty as a councillor and help the community (who seriously object to it) oppose another airy fairy windmill scheme on our mountain:D
 
In which case I spring forth from the clock proclaiming the hours!:biggrinjester:

As I said, I've worked within the renewables industry, and am incredibly cynical about all the claims made for different generation technologies, and have over the years found out which claims are true, and which are false - both solar panels and wind turbines are very effective means of producing energy renewably - sadly a gullible public are being bamboozled by utter garbage trotted out by the "anti wind" brigade (funded amongst others by Exxon) - I'll reiterate, they both "pay back" the energy used in their manufacture (including transport and concrete bases) and the financial costs remarkably quickly - they need to be used as part of a sensible energy "mix", and allied to sensible measures to conserve energy wherever possible.

I will defend to the hilt technologies that DO work (like wind and solar), but am also very critical when claims are false - medium and large wind turbines work very well, roof-mounted turbines don't work at all, and I've said so, very loudly for some years - thankfully Swindlesave have now gone broke, and the scam seems to have died a death

So don't believe the weasel words of the likes of Lawson, Delingpole and Melanie Philips - we do face very serious problems, and things like wind and solar are part of the answer!
 
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To me Brosville what you say makes sense. I find that the most vociferous opponents of wind farms are those who have had one suggested near their homes.

Nobody has ever produced for me much in the way of sensible unbiased evidence that they are as bad as many claim.

Note for those who will probably start to bombard me with suggestions I really would like it to be unbiased. Most seem to come form organisations with a vested interest one way or the other.
 
I grew up at the foot of the beautiful South Downs, and spent a lot of my youth walking and riding over them - I would be really pleased to see them graced with a crop of windflowers, doing their bit towards saving us from our profligate taste for energy - I think they are beautiful devices, and if put up against the alternatives are a positive asset. We can put them out at sea, but it costs about twice as much to do so.
I'm "admin" on a renewable energy forum where these topics are discussed up and down dale for years on end - there is little argument that "wind" is very effective (as are both sorts of solar panels) - we can argue forever over the aesthetics, and whether land or sea is the best place, but make no mistake, "wind works", and is very cost-effective.......
 
I have lived all my life with the exception of 3 years within sight of the Lake District Fells and like you find wind turbines aesthetically pleasing.
 
I would like to see even more wind turbines,and much more hydro electric,much cleaner and safer than the thing up the coast at Hinkley point,which could lead to a disaster like they have in Japan, when we get a huge tidal wave some day.
 
"nuclear power is even more expensive, can't be online in time to fill the yawning energy gap, and could only provide a tiny proportion of our energy needs (it's essentially an expensive white elephant that's only back on the agenda thanks to very effective lobbying by the nuclear industry)

Not too sure that's completely correct old chap. Nuclear is very cheap for the marginal cost of electricity production, so to shift from 1MW to 2MW is almost nil. That's mostly why France's electricity (75% nuclear, so unsure about "could only provide a tiny proportion" either) is so cheap compared to ours. Nuclear plants are expensive to build because of Very Important Safety Measures, and expensive to dismantle after for the same reason. Running is similar to a coal plant. Waste storage (in the context of generating power for a country) is a minimal cost - look at Drigg for example. If thorium reactors were allowed, the waste would be even lower, with more energy output. The other thing is, it's actually the safest technology per MWh produced because of all the levels of H&S built into each part of the process. More people die each year installing windmills than have died in the whole of the UK's nuclear power history, and it was pretty shady at the beginning. Nuclear's biggest problem is the word "radiation" which is little understood, and thanks to decades of spider-man comics and disaster films is perceived as "very bad indeed" by the general populace. The same populace who happily go on holiday to Cornwall, have X-Rays, take long haul flights, sunbathe...

Of course, if we put all these subsidies into nuclear fusion we'd have cheap, clean, and safe energy for ever (the universe won't run out of hydrogen any time soon), but the powers that be would rather tilt at windmills. The current investment into fusion by the whole EU over the next ten years is just short of the cost of the Olympic Games. Personally I'd rather the cash was spent on saving the human race than a bunch of people poncing about in lycra, but that's a personal view.

Talking of being online - how quickly can we make the the wind blow should the grid consumption rise? Can we make the sun shine at night for those cold, still winter evenings? Which valleys and villages and towns would you flood to pump water for "potential energy storage"? That's one of the issues with those "renewables" quite often when we need the power there is no wind, or it's dark. I use quotes around "renewable" because it's not. Once gone the energy is gone, we need more from the sun to make wind or light or whatever.

IF you can get the higher rate for a pv array, it's financially very attractive, as it can give 12% or more return on capital - even the new lower rate will give around 6% (which is around double what you'll get from a bank), so it is both financially attractive, and really does play a part in fighting climate change (after the initial 3 years "paying back" the energy used in their making, they will probably produce effectively "free" electricity for another 50 years)

Two comments on that - are you aware of any PV panel performing at the same level for 50 years? I thought the "intended" life was closer to 10. I may be wrong.
Secondly - who pays for all the electricity generated? That will be those who cannot afford PV panels (or have no space for them, in a flat for example). As a rule of thumb, those are the people at the poorer end of the spectrum, so we're shafting "the poor" once again. I agree with the sentiment that we need to shift away from fossil, but I don't think this is the way to do it.

* I have worked within the industry, and have costed medium sized turbines (which are not as cost-effective as the biggies), and even down here in the relatively windless south they pay back financially within a very few years, and repay their embodied energy (the important part) in just over a year...

This I find interesting. What level of output did you use compared to the rated output of a windmill? Did you include costs of firing up a fossil station when the wind isn't there, or is too strong?

In short - we need a mixture of energy sources. Oil and gas won't last forever. Wind and sun are too unpredictable. Tides are predictable, but I don't think we have enough surface area to cover all our needs. For me fusion is the answer, but it's still "30 years away" as it has been for the last 30 years. Why we can't throw serious money at that I do not know. The physics is now well understood, it's more or less a series of engineering problems to be overcome (big engineering problems I hasten to add).
 
I would like to see even more wind turbines,and much more hydro electric,much cleaner and safer than the thing up the coast at Hinkley point,which could lead to a disaster like they have in Japan, when we get a huge tidal wave some day.

I know exactly what you mean Hivemaker having grown up on the Cumbria coastal plain not a thousand miles from Calder Hall/Sellafield/Windscale (chose the name you know it by they change it every time it gets bad press).

Both myself and my wife were living in the area during the disastrous leak in 1952 and it leaves you wondering for the rest of your life.
 
"wind works", and is very cost-effective.......

As long as loads of tax payers money is ploughed into it! The whole wind thing has been a very successful propaganda campaign feeding on people's fear for the future. I have no argument with solar or hydro and still maintain that we should do more to harness the massive amount of energy available in tidal power around our island, unfortunately the obsession with wind power has meant that investment in researching this resource has been poor as wind is the big business that has greatly benefited the businessmen who really run this country. I'm sorry Brosville we are going to have to agree to disagree with this one.
I'm only a few miles away from the latest project (which won't have much of an aesthetic impact on my little valley BTW) and it's heartbreaking to see the damage being done to an area which has seen little change since our iron age ancestors buried their chiefs up there and the romans drove a road through it. And this is long before we will even see the one part of a windmill.
 
In short (I'm just off out) "renewables" means that the "fuel" is never-ending (wind, tide etc) - as I said, even if we use the outdated leaky nukes the French have, they can't be online in under 10 years, then at vast cost - fusion?- perhaps in 30-40 years.....

PVs are an "old" technology, and have been in use for over 50 years - some of the first are still producing at over 90% of their original output (and technology has improved since then)

As I said, I've done the costings for wind (as have many others), and taking everything into account (intermittency, cost of construction etc), they ARE a very cost-effective means of generating a lot of our energy needs.... all the time they're generating we're saving fossil fuels......

"Cold winter evenings" - we need to insulate until it comes out of our ears - if we're not suing it, we don't have to capture/generate it!

"As long as loads of tax payers money is ploughed into it!" - we already subsidise fossil fuels, we have to invest in alternatives, wind is (as I've said ad nauseam) highly cost-effective
 
The saving of CO2 emmissions is a non starter as the amount of CO2 emmitted by the lorry bringing the PV or wind turbine from the docks to site ( in the calculations I did from Harwich to Helston) by diesel lorry, can never be recouped, let alone the manufacture.......

Have you worked out the CO2 emmissions for a nuclear reactor?

Rember to calculate the co2 cost of all the building materials and the transport of all that to site, as well as all the Co2 emmited by the running of the reactor, and decommissioning of the reactor and spent fuel at the end of its life. This world include workers transport aswell as all the freight movements associated with it.

Would you be able to post the 2 figures on here so that we can compare the two?
 
I would like to see even more wind turbines,and much more hydro electric,much cleaner and safer than the thing up the coast at Hinkley point,which could lead to a disaster like they have in Japan, when we get a huge tidal wave some day.

Sadly it's not that simple. Here's the "deaths per TWh" of each type of power production, worldwide:

Energy Source Death Rate (deaths per TWh)

Coal – world average 161 (26% of world energy, 50% of electricity)
Coal – China 278
Coal – USA 15
Oil 36 (36% of world energy)
Natural Gas 4 (21% of world energy)
Biofuel/Biomass 12
Peat 12
Solar (rooftop) 0.44 (less than 0.1% of world energy)
Wind 0.15 (less than 1% of world energy)
Hydro 0.10 (europe death rate, 2.2% of world energy)
Hydro - world including Banqiao) 1.4 (about 2500 TWh/yr and 171,000 Banqiao dead)
Nuclear 0.04 (5.9% of world energy)

Hydro gets shifted by one incident in China, where 171,000 or so people died when the Banqiao dam burst in 1975. Nuclear is shifted by Chernobyl, there were 2 deaths at Fukushima, both due to the impact of the tidal wave and nothing to do with the nuclear bits. Resultant radiation related deaths are likely to be minimal (Three Mile Island has "too low to be measured" for example).

The turbines are made from plastics. Plastics come from oil. Oil has to be drilled. That kills people.

Nothing is "safe" it's just about how much death (and at what point in the "chain") we are willing to tolerate to keep the lights on - just like how much death are we willing to put up with to continue travelling by road, rail, air etc.
 
Have you worked out the CO2 emmissions for a nuclear reactor?

Rember to calculate the co2 cost of all the building materials and the transport of all that to site, as well as all the Co2 emmited by the running of the reactor, and decommissioning of the reactor and spent fuel at the end of its life. This world include workers transport aswell as all the freight movements associated with it.

Would you be able to post the 2 figures on here so that we can compare the two?

That's difficult too - surely the correct figure would be "total CO2 released per MWH generated over lifetime of product". I have no data on that.
 
Nuclear is shifted by Chernobyl, there were 2 deaths at Fukushima, both due to the impact of the tidal wave and nothing to do with the nuclear bits.

Only two deaths at Fukishima,thought there were more than that,they really are making a big fuss about nothing then.
 

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