Double brood working vs Demaree

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Can I just clarify regarding the supers? Do you put one on first, wait for it to be almost filled and then add the second, or are both added straight away?

by the time you get around to doing a demarree you will usually have at least two supers on the hive.

 

[E&MBees]

by the time you get around to doing a demarree you will usually have at least two supers on the hive.

Dani mentioned that she starts doing a demarree in April, so by that time Dani will have two supers on her hives?
No wonder last year went so horribly wrong. I was told not to inspect until April, by which time they were ready to swarm, stressed and developing CBPV because of the lack of space. This year will be different. The demarree boards, extra brood boxes and supers are ready and waiting.

 

[elainemary]

You understand wrong - the original Demarree was an empty brood box with the queen in, QX then supers then a brood box on top with all the brood - and it wasn't kept rolling either

Hi, I attended a webinar, led by Ken Basterfield on double brood chamber working in the summer & he said the original Demaree was simply 2 brood chambers with a queen excluder between. He said it evolved over time to the way it’s done today with the second brood box above the supers (he also said he preferred double brood chambers; partly the reason for my original post). But I’ve just googled to find the original method and found the original article in the American Bee journal in a broader article about Demaree technique, where George Demaree describes his manipulation. Link below for historical interest. I guess supers were after his time! Plus the writer in the broader article quotes you Emyr and your method, then closes with some pros and cons. A good read!
Elaine
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thewalrusandthehoneybee.com/demaree/amp/

 

[GuyNir]

Elaine, I believe Walrus (Steve) is a member of this forum. Not sure how active.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Dani mentioned that she starts doing a demarree in April, so by that time Dani will have two supers on her hives?
No wonder last year went so horribly wrong. I was told not to inspect until April, by which time they were ready to swarm, stressed and developing CBPV because of the lack of space. This year will be different. The demarree boards, extra brood boxes and supers are ready and waiting.

Last year was different. Dandelions were out from March and the bees went nuts
I've just looked my notes up
First super on 7th April, second on 11th, Demareed on 22nd

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Hi, I attended a webinar, led by Ken Basterfield on double brood chamber working in the summer & he said the original Demaree was simply 2 brood chambers with a queen excluder between. He said it evolved over time to the way it’s done today with the second brood box above the supers (he also said he preferred double brood chambers; partly the reason for my original post). But I’ve just googled to find the original method and found the original article in the American Bee journal in a broader article about Demaree technique, where George Demaree describes his manipulation. Link below for historical interest. I guess supers were after his time! Plus the writer in the broader article quotes you Emyr and your method, then closes with some pros and cons. A good read!
Elaine
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/thewalrusandthehoneybee.com/demaree/amp/

I gave Steve Donohoe the reference for the original article, the 'tiering' Demarree mentioned is just the adding of supers as far as I am aware. He just says to put the brood above the QX, no mention of putting it immediately above. He says to start the manipulation when the colony is at it's strongest and near swarming, then to put the brood frames on the upper story above the QX, by the time my bees are 'near swarming' they will all have a couple of supers on.I think Demarree used the same size box throughout so the upper story would imply the topmost super. I think in those days they just slapped all the boxes on and let the bees fill them

 

[Amari]

Never tried double brood; brood and a half once.
I like to Demaree a couple of colonies and keep it rolling to give the queen endless space to lay. Works well for me.

Ah, you have less need for double brood etc because you're on 14x12.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Last year was different. Dandelions were out from March and the bees went nuts
I've just looked my notes up
First super on 7th April, second on 11th, Demareed on 22nd

Last season was an early start, the first time I think I've done any serious poking around inside the hives before the date of the Welsh convention.

 

[Amari]

Where are you reading all this from?
By the time you Demaree you will have supers on the colony.
Read this
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

The one disadvantage of Demaree is that drawn brood comb in the new bottom box is advised. Some say mandatory. I have 10 hives but not enough drawn comb to Demaree them all.

Edit: I wonder if Bailey comb exchange is an alternative for some hives? Queen is put in a BB of foundation above Qx, eke with entrance (close bottom entrance), and old BB = space++, new comb drawn and 'keeps the workers busy drawing new comb', said to be a disincentive to swarming

 

[E&MBees]

Last year was different. Dandelions were out from March and the bees went nuts
I've just looked my notes up
First super on 7th April, second on 11th, Demareed on 22nd

Thanks for that Dani.

 

[Erichalfbee]

The one disadvantage of Demaree is that drawn brood comb in the new bottom box is advised. Some say mandatory. I have 10 hives but not enough drawn comb to Demaree them all.

Edit: I wonder if Bailey comb exchange is an alternative for some hives? Queen is put in a BB of foundation above Qx, eke with entrance (close bottom entrance), and old BB = space++, new comb drawn and 'keeps the workers busy drawing new comb', said to be a disincentive to swarming

I’ve done it with foundation. In addition if you put a frame of foundation in the top brood the bees often draw it super quickly and you can put it downstairs in a matter of days.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The one disadvantage of Demaree is that drawn brood comb in the new bottom box is advised. Some say mandatory. I have 10 hives but not enough drawn comb to Demaree them all.

It works with foundation - ideally you want a good flow with Demarree, I seldom have enough drawn comb to fully furnish my bottom boxes so I usually have the frame with the queen on from the original box with a drawn frame each side, two each side if I can 'afford' it, then as soon as I have emerged bees up top, I put those frames below

 

[Hachi]

Sometimes I think that members not using real names on forums is a hangover from the early days of the internet and shouldn't be encouraged (or allowed) today. Some newspapers require real names for posting comments - presumably because it helps reduce offensive posting.

On the other hand, I've just enjoyed listening to the song Eric the Half-a-Bee (Monty Python, 1972) with its amazing, crazy words. And I'd never have done that if I'd not wanted to get to the bottom of the forum name Erichalfbee!

Unfortunately one downside to the 'tinternet is that it gives a voice to some quite vile people who wouldn't ordinarily get a voice and use it for nothing more than a medium to spread their vitriolic bile. It has been witnessed these internet keyboard K**B jockeys to follow individuals to other sites and repeat the process. Hence forum names. It affords the individual a basic level of security across the net.

Anecdotally, there is one individual on another forum who clearly has a strong dislike of me and yet on another forum he and I get on extremely well. He uses the same forum name across the web whereas I don't. I find it really quite amusing and it illustrates the point perfectly. For the avoidance of doubt, it is not in the beekeeping world.

 

[Swarm]

The above use of foundation is something we all have to do, never enough spare comb. Maybe consider another deep box instead of the two supers to get combs drawn, rotate them into use and replace with foundation.

 

[Michael Palmer]

Last year was different. Dandelions were out from March and the bees went nuts
I've just looked my notes up
First super on 7th April, second on 11th, Demareed on 22nd

This is why I super before or just as I see the first dandelion bloom. I give two 6 5/8 supers then. Two more 2-3 weeks later when the brood chambers are reversed. Trying to keep the bees moving up...no excluders used.

I hope it's okay to keep interjecting bits of what I do over here...

 

[Hachi]

Hell yeah Mike keep it coming..... Please

 

[elainemary]

The one disadvantage of Demaree is that drawn brood comb in the new bottom box is advised. Some say mandatory. I have 10 hives but not enough drawn comb to Demaree them all.

Edit: I wonder if Bailey comb exchange is an alternative for some hives? Queen is put in a BB of foundation above Qx, eke with entrance (close bottom entrance), and old BB = space++, new comb drawn and 'keeps the workers busy drawing new comb', said to be a disincentive to swarming

Yes, I do this occasionally, if I find nosema spores. It does seem to delay / reduce the chance of swarming and works well, gives the colony a new lease of life with new combs. They zip along afterwards. Best to have some drawn comb esp if colony isn’t strong. Think Demaree is preferable though if the colony is strong and can change combs by rotating them out the top box.

I started the season last year with double brood on one colony but with the queen excluder between the 2 boxes to draw lots of new comb in the top box. Then I switched this to Demaree once the colony expanded and had lots of brood and needed more space, using the drawn comb to rotate back into the bottom box for the queen to lay. Worked well for a while but they did start swarm cells when it reached a critical size.

 

[elainemary]

This is why I super before or just as I see the first dandelion bloom. I give two 6 5/8 supers then. Two more 2-3 weeks later when the brood chambers are reversed. Trying to keep the bees moving up...no excluders used.

I hope it's okay to keep interjecting bits of what I do over here...

Mike thanks, I’m interested in your brood reversal technique, can you run us through that in a bit more detail pls, what you look for, to decide when to do this

 

[Erichalfbee]

This is why I super before or just as I see the first dandelion bloom. I give two 6 5/8 supers then. Two more 2-3 weeks later when the brood chambers are reversed. Trying to keep the bees moving up...no excluders used.

I hope it's okay to keep interjecting bits of what I do over here...

Yes please.....keep it coming

 

[Hebeegeebee]

I tend to use double brood which gives enough space that swarming is unlikely with my bees. The idea that 14 frames of brood is 'normal' is a bit prescriptive as it depends on the flavour of bee - some will stick at 16 - 20, say. In the same way, saying "don't inspect until a certain date" is also too prescriptive. If I have used a demaree (with supers in between the two boxes), what often happens is that the top brood box tends to fill with honey and you get queencells. Neither of which I want. So I do use a demaree sometimes when I want to graft in the top box although 'early' in the season can mean that they don't want to draw queencells. But that's bees for you.
I guess you could demaree with the two brood boxes together (excluder in between) which shouldn't result in queencells being drawn and then move the top queenless bb above the supers a week later by which time they won't be able to make any queencells. But that's a lot of manipulation.