Double brood working vs Demaree

[elainemary]

Marking queens doesn't make them easier to find.
Double brood doesn't address the issue of swarming fever in the least, having more space doesn't mean less chance of swarming, Demarree addresses just that.

I was wondering whether double brood delays / prevents the onset of the swarming urge due to additional space in the brood nest (like the Demaree does). Why does Demaree work better to reduce the swarming urge if the space, flow and colony overall strength is the same?
Only reason I can think of is whether MORE nurse bees go up with the brood in the top box and leas stay in the bottom, but surely the nurse bees come back down again as soon as the queen lays in the empty frames in the lower box which she can do very quickly?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Why does Demaree work better to the reduce swarming urge if the space, flow and colony overall strength is the same?
Only reason I can think of is whether MORE nurse bees go up with the brood in the top box and leas stay in the bottom, but surely the nurse bees come back down again as soon as the queen lays in the empty frames in the lower box which she can do very quickly?

Which is why keeping it rolling makes so much more sense

 

[elainemary]

Which is why keeping it rolling makes so much more sense

Thanks understand that ie keep moving sealed brood up and empty combs down, so is that the key to this- it separates more nurse bees from the queen compared to double brood?

 

[Swarm]

Understand the ‘optimum’ space for the brood nest is 14 frames (according to Beowulf Cooper) so agree dummying down is a good plan, otherwise could have excessive honey in the brood nest when you want it up in the super.

Check that does not mean 'brooded frames', which is the reason I give them 18 frames as a rule. Native bees will always have a decent amount of honey in the nest, I find 18 allows a happy medium.
Should add that in 2018 I had an Amm queen in a nuc tower that I took down when they were six high, she had brood on 18 frames.

 

[elainemary]

Check that does not mean 'brooded frames', which is the reason I give them 18 frames as a rule. Native bees will always have a decent amount of honey in the nest, I find 18 allows a happy medium.
Should add that in 2018 I had an Amm queen in a nuc tower that I took down when they were six high, she had brood on 18 frames.

Yes you’re right sorry, it’s 14 frames with brood. I experimented with 2 colonies last year, one needed 16 frames and one needed 18 like yours. Guess depends on colony and envoinment

 

[GuyNir]

What are the extra options that Demaree allows that double brood doesn’t?
Pls explain

Making extra Q’s, replacing an older Q with a new one quite seamlessly, straight forward splits etc’

 

[Somerford]

Just thinking about my colony plans for the coming season. I tried a Demaree in a couple of colonies last year (2nd brood box above supers for sealed brood, to provide more space for queen in bottom brood box). Wondering whether to move to double brood instead, for colonies that need the space. Advantages seem to include keeping the brood nest together, so the bees form a natural pollen / honey arc (rather than putting pollen in the first super), whilst still giving more space for the queen to lay. Plus, simplicity of doing a vertical split for swarm control if required. Can dummy space down if the bees don’t need the full amount of double brood space, encouraging bees to store surplus honey in the supers. So wondering why consider using Demaree in preference to running a double brood system? What is your experience using double brood vs Demaree, which would you recommend & why?
Appreciate you thoughts
Thanks, Elaine

So I demaree when queen rearering to encourage cell building but well over 80-90% of my colionies end up double brood every season and I prepare enough boxes and frames over the winter for that.

Why ?

Firstly, it gives the bees something to do when they get to that first flush of young bees in the expanding brood nest - drawing foundation onto new frames to replace old ones by mid-april can easily be achieved in the right locations. It gives the queen a huge place to lay, and you can then swap the broods over to join the next together.

Having so many frames makes it easy to help re-balance hives in the spring to supplement the weaker ones and also with 24 frames you can easily make 4 nucs up and leave some back in a bottom chamber with the queen and flying bees.

Downside ? yes they do store honey in brood frames so you have to adapt your system to account for that, and yes you need a bit more kit but kit is relatively good value 2nds especially.

On the whole I find it reduces swarming and at the end of the year you can pick the best newly drawn frames to over winter on and remove the older ones more readily=healthier colony

why not try it on a couple of colonies this season ?

KR

S

 

[deemann1]

The demaree worked great for me last season, I was talking to an old boy who advised me to try his system out.
Basically double brood with a qx between brood boxes pulling up frames with eggs and open larvae which will bring up nursing bees and drop down sealed brood which will hatch and give Q more room to lay ,keep it rolling trough out season .

 

[elainemary]

Making extra Q’s, replacing an older Q with a new one quite seamlessly, straight forward splits etc’

Thanks, you can do that with double brood too (splits, uniting etc)..though I’ve had success with creating supercedure cells in the top box of a Demaree, is that what you meant re replacing old queen with new?

 

[elainemary]

The demaree worked great for me last season, I was talking to an old boy who advised me to try his system out.
Basically double brood with a qx between brood boxes pulling up frames with eggs and open larvae which will bring up nursing bees and drop down sealed brood which will hatch and give Q more room to lay ,keep it rolling trough out season .

Thanks I understand the original Demaree was just that a double brood with q excluder between & kept rolling. Wonder why it was moved to above the super...perhaps to stop the honey going into empty brood frames?

 

[elainemary]

So I demaree when queen rearering to encourage cell building but well over 80-90% of my colionies end up double brood every season and I prepare enough boxes and frames over the winter for that.

Why ?

Firstly, it gives the bees something to do when they get to that first flush of young bees in the expanding brood nest - drawing foundation onto new frames to replace old ones by mid-april can easily be achieved in the right locations. It gives the queen a huge place to lay, and you can then swap the broods over to join the next together.

Having so many frames makes it easy to help re-balance hives in the spring to supplement the weaker ones and also with 24 frames you can easily make 4 nucs up and leave some back in a bottom chamber with the queen and flying bees.

Downside ? yes they do store honey in brood frames so you have to adapt your system to account for that, and yes you need a bit more kit but kit is relatively good value 2nds especially.

On the whole I find it reduces swarming and at the end of the year you can pick the best newly drawn frames to over winter on and remove the older ones more readily=healthier colony

why not try it on a couple of colonies this season ?

KR

S

Thankyou. Do you move the second brood box above the super(s) or do you keep it above the bottom brood box with a queen excluder between and supers above the 2 brood boxes? I tried both ways last year, worked on one colony re controlling the swarming urge but didn’t on the second (still created swarm cells). The one I tried with brood above the super created a nice supercedure cell. V nice queen as a result. Was just wondering the pros and cons of this vs straight forward double brood, so you’ve helped reinforce the benefits of Demaree.

 

[GuyNir]

Thanks, you can do that with double brood too (splits, uniting etc)..though I’ve had success with creating supercedure cells in the top box of a Demaree, is that what you meant re replacing old queen with new?

Elaine, what I mean is you can run a 2 Q‘s system, then at the end of summer get rid of the old one, leaving the colony with a young Q.

 

[elainemary]

Elaine, what I mean is you can run a 2 Q‘s system, then at the end of summer get rid of the old one, leaving the colony with a young Q.

Thanks, could result in a v tall hive!? Unless you unite soon after the new queen has mated & shown a good brood pattern...?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Thanks I understand the original Demaree was just that a double brood with q excluder between & kept rolling.

You understand wrong - the original Demarree was an empty brood box with the queen in, QX then supers then a brood box on top with all the brood - and it wasn't kept rolling either

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Why does Demaree work better to reduce the swarming urge if the space, flow and colony overall strength is the same?

Because you've separated the queen from the brood, so she has a whole ten or eleven frames to lay up

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

or do you keep it above the bottom brood box with a queen excluder between and supers above the 2 brood boxes?

That's not a demarree

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks understand that ie keep moving sealed brood up and empty combs down, so is that the key to this- it separates more nurse bees from the queen compared to double brood?

Of course. There are two supers between them.
How much separation is there in one large box split into two halves one on top of the other ?

 

[E&MBees]

Of course. There are two supers between them.
How much separation is there in one large box split into two halves one on top of the other ?

Can I just clarify regarding the supers? Do you put one on first, wait for it to be almost filled and then add the second, or are both added straight away?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can I just clarify regarding the supers? Do you put one on first, wait for it to be almost filled and then add the second, or are both added straight away?

Where are you reading all this from?
By the time you Demaree you will have supers on the colony.
Read this
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

 

[E&MBees]

Where are you reading all this from?
By the time you Demaree you will have supers on the colony.
Read this
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

Thanks and sorry for being frustrating!