Double brood working vs Demaree

[Murox]

Didn't Demaree create this so he could maximise the honey harvest, manage swarming and keep the colony at full strength? I think he was dealing mainly with comb honey, so drawing wax was vital. Didn't he only add “supers” after the brood had emerged in the upper box so he had at least one full box of 'surplus' honey?

 

[Boston Bees]

Also worth noting that Demaree developed this system pre-varroa.

If you are a beginner reading this thread, it is perhaps worth just highlighting that methods such as rolling demaree, which allow very large bee populations to develop, and discourage swarming (thus no brood breaks), will (other things being equal) also have the effect of developing bumper populations of varroa.

As such, if you use methods like this, you are going to have to be especially vigilant in your varroa control. As long as you are, that's fine. But if you aren't, all that you will happen is that you will get a huge colony of bees and varroa by late summer, leading to a highly diseased winter bee population, and then a bunch of corpses in February.

 

[Murox]

The one disadvantage of Demaree is that drawn brood comb in the new bottom box is advised. Some say mandatory. I have 10 hives but not enough drawn comb to Demaree them all........snip..............

Demaree reckoned that one frame with eggs and unsealed brood and the queen was enough, flanked with drawn comb if he had it but that complete frames of foundation or even starter strips could be used.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Also worth noting that Demaree developed this system pre-varroa.

If you are a beginner reading this thread, it is perhaps worth just highlighting that methods such as rolling demaree, which allow very large bee populations to develop, and discourage swarming (thus no brood breaks), will (other things being equal) also have the effect of developing bumper populations of varroa.

As such, if you use methods like this, you are going to have to be especially vigilant in your varroa control. As long as you are, that's fine. But if you aren't, all that you will happen is that you will get a huge colony of bees and varroa by late summer, leading to a highly diseased winter bee population, and then a bunch of corpses in February.

Yes indeed you have to be on top of varroa with a large colony that hasn’t been split.

 

[beeno]

Thanks I understand the original Demaree was just that a double brood with q excluder between & kept rolling. Wonder why it was moved to above the super...perhaps to stop the honey going into empty brood frames?

There is a tendency for queen cells to be built in the top box of a Demaree which induces the queen to swarm in the bottom box. The super/s were introduced to make space between the "colonies" and reducing the risk of the queen in the bottom box swarming. I am aware that some people will say that this never happens if you demaree before queen cells are started in the bottom box.

 

[elainemary]

Also worth noting that Demaree developed this system pre-varroa.

If you are a beginner reading this thread, it is perhaps worth just highlighting that methods such as rolling demaree, which allow very large bee populations to develop, and discourage swarming (thus no brood breaks), will (other things being equal) also have the effect of developing bumper populations of varroa.

As such, if you use methods like this, you are going to have to be especially vigilant in your varroa control. As long as you are, that's fine. But if you aren't, all that you will happen is that you will get a huge colony of bees and varroa by late summer, leading to a highly diseased winter bee population, and then a bunch of corpses in February.

Yes agree v mindful of this. Think why it needs to be combined with a split to give a brood break (plus regular monitoring of mites). Then reunite later ready for the main flow.

 

[elainemary]

There is a tendency for queen cells to be built in the top box of a Demaree which induces the queen to swarm in the bottom box. The super/s were introduced to make space between the "colonies" and reducing the risk of the queen in the bottom box swarming. I am aware that some people will say that this never happens if you demaree before queen cells are started in the bottom box.

The cells built in the top box are as a result of supercedure impulse (less queen pheromone), so shouldn't initiate swarming if supers on between. Think it's whether you stay ahead of the bees with the rolling part of the demaree and the overall size of the colony in the end, that can trigger the swarming impulse in the bottom box. To stay ahead when the colony gets big, you probably need to split. Learning you can only judge this by knowing your bees and how swarmy they are....

 

[Erichalfbee]

No point doing a Demaree after you find queen cells.
The supers are there to separate the queen from the brood

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Didn't Demaree create this so he could maximise the honey harvest, manage swarming and keep the colony at full strength? I think he was dealing mainly with comb honey,

No, he didn't deal that much with comb honey which is why he didn't mind them backfilling brood frames. as for supering, most of what you read is the system for adding sections for filling and when.
If you read properly what he actually says about starting the Demaree he says to put the brood frames on the topmost storey over the QX which suggests to me that he already had supers on, much as I respect Dan Basterfield and his father (and I can't believe he still has time for the BBKA after their appalling treatment) I think he has misread that one.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

it is perhaps worth just highlighting that methods such as rolling demaree, which allow very large bee populations to develop, and discourage swarming (thus no brood breaks), will (other things being equal) also have the effect of developing bumper populations of varroa.

Never found that and I have quite a few Demarrees running every season, I think people get a bit obsessive with this brood breaks being the be all and end all of everything,

There is a tendency for queen cells to be built in the top box of a Demaree which induces the queen to swarm in the bottom box.

Totally incorrect - never seen it happen once. The whole point of the manipulation is for them to build supersedure cells in the top box (the weak queen pheromone levels up there makes the worker believe the queen is failing)which you can tear down, the bonus is you can use them to make increase.
And the whole point of a demarree is that it is done before any QC's are found. If you do it after, it isn't a Demarree but just a panicked hope for the best.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You should be putting sealed brood up there anyway apart from the first manoeuvre when JBM has clearly described how and when to deal with the queen cells. However I must admit that later if some open brood is inadvertently moved they don’t tend to bother making queen cells.

 

[Murox]

No, he didn't deal that much with comb honey which is why he didn't mind them backfilling brood frames. as for supering, most of what you read is the system for adding sections for filling and when.
If you read properly what he actually says about starting the Demaree he says to put the brood frames on the topmost storey over the QX which suggests to me that he already had supers on, much as I respect Dan Basterfield and his father (and I can't believe he still has time for the BBKA after their appalling treatment) I think he has misread that one.

That makes better sense
I agree, "on the topmost storey over the queen excluder" does indeed suggest that.

 

[Swarm]

Never found that and I have quite a few Demarrees running every season, I think people get a bit obsessive with this brood breaks being the be all and end all of everything,

I don't think there is any difference between a colony that has not swarmed and one on Demarree other than the box orientation. If cells and brood are harvested for nucs, it could be argued that the Demarree will have a reduced load. Either way, I think it's accepted these days, that varroa control is probably the most important aspect of beekeeping so staying on top of it should be a given.
As for cells in the top brood creating a swarm impulse, that's wrong. The beauty of this procedure is that they DON'T swarm on a sealed cell so inspections are not governed by that risk, hence more leisurely and less frequent. The worst you can do is miss a queen cell but you will soon realise your error when you start finding eggs in the top box. Such an inconvenience to remove that top box as a new colony.

 

[Swarm]

You should be putting sealed brood up there anyway apart from the first manoeuvre when JBM has clearly described how and when to deal with the queen cells. However I must admit that later if some open brood is inadvertently moved they don’t tend to bother making queen cells.

Unless you are looking to harvest cells, when you give them a frame of eggs.

 

[beeno]

You should be putting sealed brood up there anyway apart from the first manoeuvre when JBM has clearly described how and when to deal with the queen cells. However I must admit that later if some open brood is inadvertently moved they don’t tend to bother making queen cells.

Well, that's a job and a half then! I put a QX between a double brood to keep the queen laying in the bottom box. Queen cells in top box at the next inspection. Footprint pheromones from the queen are extremely important to prevent emergency queen cells.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Well, that's a job and a half then! I put a QX between a double brood to keep the queen laying in the bottom box. Queen cells in top box at the next inspection. Footprint pheromones from the queen are extremely important to prevent emergency queen cells.

If you don’t like the system then don’t do it. It works for me and lots of others.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Well, that's a job and a half then! I put a QX between a double brood to keep the queen laying in the bottom box. Queen cells in top box at the next inspection. Footprint pheromones from the queen are extremely important to prevent emergency queen cells.

So you didn't do a demarree then

 

[elainemary]

Unless you are looking to harvest cells, when you give them a frame of eggs.

Yes did that last year in my trial Demaree and worked v well. 2 nice cells. Now have a v nice queen from one of them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes did that last year in my trial Demaree and worked v well. 2 nice cells. Now have a v nice queen from one of them.

Yes I gave a colony in mind to try that

 

[elainemary]

Thanks everyone for your contributions to this thread, if I can just summarise it back.... Has helped reinforce that Demaree's are a good way to 'manipulate' a colony to help control swarming. Need to keep them 'rolling though' by moving sealed brood up & giving empty combs back to the queen. You can raise supersedure cells by giving young brood (doesn't always work), or to finish grafts in the top box. Need to keep checking the bottom box and checking for varroa too. Split if it becomes daunting. Worth saying that some of you have success with double brood (more space).

Hope @Michael Palmer answers re how his box reversal works (probably time difference at play) ...presume it's about the queen moving up to the top brood box and then switching boxes over...from my limited experience of double brood & nuc extensions she seems to freely move & lay between both boxes though, rather than moving systematically...so keen to learn more

Elaine