Double brood working vs Demaree

[Erichalfbee]

No need to keep it rolling.
Most people move the top box off with their chosen queen cell or make nucs up using the Demaree method as a split

 

[Erichalfbee]

Hope @Michael Palmer answers re how his box reversal works (probably time difference at play) ...presume it's about the queen moving up to the top brood box and then switching boxes over...from my limited experience of double brood & nuc extensions she seems to freely move & lay between both boxes though, rather than moving systematically...so keen to learn more

Elaine

You could start here

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Need to keep them 'rolling though' by moving sealed brood up & giving empty combs back to the queen.

No

You can raise supersedure cells by giving young brood

No

or to finish grafts in the top box.

Sort of

Need to keep checking the bottom box and checking for varroa too.

No

Split if it becomes daunting.

Eh?
No

I don't understand why people need to over complicate a very simple manipulation. A straight demarree is simple. Everything else you can do is just window dressing, not totally neccessary
you separate the queen from the brood by taking all the brood out of the brood box and putting it (as George Demarree wrote) in the topmost box above the queen excluder (In British parlance that means in an extra brood box above the supers) you then leave the queen in the bottom with foundation and/or as much drawn comb as you can spare.
you then go in a week later and tear down all the QC's (as it is a supersedure reaction from the bees there won't be many if any) after seven days the bees won't have larvae to make any more QC's from so you don't really need to do much more up there. If you want to use any of the QC's produced to make increase you have a choice of harvesting them fot mating nucs, taking a few frames out to make a nuc or splitting it into two or thee nucs thus taking down the top box.
The only reason you need to go in to the bottom for quite a long while is just a quick status check to makee sure everything is OK.
I don't see the need to continually over analyse a method that's worked well for a century and a half then reinvent the wheel - only a square one.
If you want to roll the demarree, you can but it's not compulsory, it's a new thing that some of us played with a few years ago, especially handy if you haven't much drawn comb and the bees are slow drawing fresh stuff. all the other stuff is just trimmings and all set out in the sticky
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

 

[LeaBees]

Yes did that last year in my trial Demaree and worked v well. 2 nice cells. Now have a v nice queen from one of them.

Prob a silly question but I see you have wbc hives. how do you create/allow for a 2nd entrance for the upper brood box?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Prob a silly question but I see you have wbc hives. how do you create/allow for a 2nd entrance for the upper brood box?

You have to remember that a second entrance isn't needed it's just something that I decided to add, Even now when I get short of kit or don't have my Demarree boards to hand I go without. Demarree didn't use a top entrance and not many have until the last few years

 

[Erichalfbee]

You have to remember that a second entrance isn't needed it's just something that I decided to add, Even now when I get short of kit or don't have my Demarree boards to hand I go without. Demarree didn't use a top entrance and not many have until the last few years

I agree
I like to have one if there are supers on the top brood box.

 

[hemo]

A top entrance is ideal if you want to raise a S/S queen from the demaree without splitting any more and let her mate, if the super below is wall to wall stores then she shouldn't need to go down or one can use a QX. I had a nice queen raised this way last year.

 

[Swarm]

Upper entrance is handy to let the drones out. My boards have an entrance and a 4 inch hole covered with a piece of queen excluder, bees have access, drones can get out. If I'm looking to raise some queens, I've always had results with a frame of eggs, they don't go into emergency mode, making do but react selectively, bringing on their 'chosen' replacement.

 

[Curly green finger's]

I haven't commented on the thread because my inexperience in using the demaree method wouldn't be worth me commenting last year was the first time and I get the idea, but found box reversal with either double brood or my three box system to work fine in preventing swarming plus taking frames of capped brood to boost smaller colonys.
Like Michael adding some times two supers a time to colonys and reversing brood boxes what ever type they are worked, in some ways you are keeping the queen moving and space to lay is always there.

I do plan to try demaree more and see if honey production is any better than what I already use.

 

[elainemary]

No

No

Sort of

No

Eh?
No

I don't understand why people need to over complicate a very simple manipulation. A straight demarree is simple. Everything else you can do is just window dressing, not totally neccessary
you separate the queen from the brood by taking all the brood out of the brood box and putting it (as George Demarree wrote) in the topmost box above the queen excluder (In British parlance that means in an extra brood box above the supers) you then leave the queen in the bottom with foundation and/or as much drawn comb as you can spare.
you then go in a week later and tear down all the QC's (as it is a supersedure reaction from the bees there won't be many if any) after seven days the bees won't have larvae to make any more QC's from so you don't really need to do much more up there. If you want to use any of the QC's produced to make increase you have a choice of harvesting them fot mating nucs, taking a few frames out to make a nuc or splitting it into two or thee nucs thus taking down the top box.
The only reason you need to go in to the bottom for quite a long while is just a quick status check to makee sure everything is OK.
I don't see the need to continually over analyse a method that's worked well for a century and a half then reinvent the wheel - only a square one.
If you want to roll the demarree, you can but it's not compulsory, it's a new thing that some of us played with a few years ago, especially handy if you haven't much drawn comb and the bees are slow drawing fresh stuff. all the other stuff is just trimmings and all set out in the sticky
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

Thanks for clarifying.
Elaine

 

[elainemary]

Prob a silly question but I see you have wbc hives. how do you create/allow for a 2nd entrance for the upper brood box?

You have to adapt & work out how to add a second entrance - I’ve made some ekes with entrance and ‘dividers’ that straddle the lifts and brood box but allow access to the brood box. The only challenge is watching bee space and getting a bit of brace comb. For instance when I first put one together my eke was far too thick, which I’ve adjusted since. Main advantage of top entrance in my view is to let drones out of the emerging brood in the top box or will get stuck in the queen excluder (you don’t want them in the supers). Or can manually let out but this means more visits...The pic attached is a Bailey comb change but same principle. For verticals splits (which you can choose to do from a Demaree or double brood), I use a snelgrove board specially adapted for WBCs - available from Thornes.
Elaine

 

[elainemary]

You could start here

Thanks

 

[elainemary]

Upper entrance is handy to let the drones out. My boards have an entrance and a 4 inch hole covered with a piece of queen excluder, bees have access, drones can get out. If I'm looking to raise some queens, I've always had results with a frame of eggs, they don't go into emergency mode, making do but react selectively, bringing on their 'chosen' replacement.

Our replies have crossed, agree re reason for second entrance. My Snelgrove board is similar to your solution, with the mesh between rather than full access - allows trophallaxis and pheromone mingling between 2 halves, esp if 2 queens, so easy to unite after removing a queen.

 

[elainemary]

I haven't commented on the thread because my inexperience in using the demaree method wouldn't be worth me commenting last year was the first time and I get the idea, but found box reversal with either double brood or my three box system to work fine in preventing swarming plus taking frames of capped brood to boost smaller colonys.
Like Michael adding some times two supers a time to colonys and reversing brood boxes what ever type they are worked, in some ways you are keeping the queen moving and space to lay is always there.

I do plan to try demaree more and see if honey production is any better than what I already use.

Thanks Mark. Can you talk me through the brood box reversal eg do you have a queen excluder between? What do you look for to decide when to do this and any other key points.
Elaine

 

[elainemary]

No

No

Sort of

No

Eh?
No

I don't understand why people need to over complicate a very simple manipulation. A straight demarree is simple. Everything else you can do is just window dressing, not totally neccessary
you separate the queen from the brood by taking all the brood out of the brood box and putting it (as George Demarree wrote) in the topmost box above the queen excluder (In British parlance that means in an extra brood box above the supers) you then leave the queen in the bottom with foundation and/or as much drawn comb as you can spare.
you then go in a week later and tear down all the QC's (as it is a supersedure reaction from the bees there won't be many if any) after seven days the bees won't have larvae to make any more QC's from so you don't really need to do much more up there. If you want to use any of the QC's produced to make increase you have a choice of harvesting them fot mating nucs, taking a few frames out to make a nuc or splitting it into two or thee nucs thus taking down the top box.
The only reason you need to go in to the bottom for quite a long while is just a quick status check to makee sure everything is OK.
I don't see the need to continually over analyse a method that's worked well for a century and a half then reinvent the wheel - only a square one.
If you want to roll the demarree, you can but it's not compulsory, it's a new thing that some of us played with a few years ago, especially handy if you haven't much drawn comb and the bees are slow drawing fresh stuff. all the other stuff is just trimmings and all set out in the sticky
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/demaree.46464/

P.S. It was the rolling bit that I struggled with last year in my first attempt. Ended up with far too much intervention. Also tricky to find frames just with sealed brood, hence why supercedure cells formed, though learnt something from that and a good outcome re a new queen. I will try it without rolling this year and switch the boxes instead (keeping queen below).

 

[Erichalfbee]

P.S. It was the rolling bit that I struggled with last year in my first attempt. Ended up with far too much intervention. Also tricky to find frames just with sealed brood, hence why supercedure cells formed, though learnt something from that and a good outcome re a new queen. I will try it without rolling this year and switch the boxes instead (keeping queen below).

Do you mean putting the bottom box up and the top box down?
How are you going to avoid moving eggs and young larvae up?
If you wait till most of the brood has emerged in the top box the bees might well have filled it with honey
Switching boxes and Demaree are completely separate manipulations
When you switch boxes they are already contiguous

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Upper entrance is handy to let the drones out. My boards have an entrance and a 4 inch hole covered with a piece of queen excluder, bees have access, drones can get out. If I'm looking to raise some queens, I've always had results with a frame of eggs, they don't go into emergency mode, making do but react selectively, bringing on their 'chosen' replacement.

Like this - been knocking these out in the Brynmair chamber of secrets for years. Also allows you to run a two queen colony with no issues then if you want to squish the old queen and just keep one - no need for a unite

 

[citrus]

one thing about an early demaree tho and end up getting splits .............they will be quite early ... just worried about those early nuc's you get ...will they get mated if there isnt that many drones about ? .... i created a few splits last year and maybe just had a horrible season but only 1 made it thru

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

one thing about an early demaree tho and end up getting splits .............they will be quite early ... just worried about those early nuc's you get ...will they get mated if there isnt that many drones about ? .... i created a few splits last year and maybe just had a horrible season but only 1 made it thru

One of the indicators that a demarree is needed is an increase in drone production - so by the time the queens from a Demarree are out, there will be plenty of drones around

 

[Buzz Off]

This is why I super before or just as I see the first dandelion bloom. I give two 6 5/8 supers then. Two more 2-3 weeks later when the brood chambers are reversed. Trying to keep the bees moving up...no excluders used.

I hope it's okay to keep interjecting bits of what I do over here...

What do you mean by 6 5/8?