Breeding Groups

[Beefriendly]

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But new researches show, the dilution is so such in first generation, that antivarroa features is practically as good as in normal bees. 10% less mites in the hive has no meaning.

It suggests that most of the multitude of genes involved in VSH are recessive and/or polygenic so won't be expressed in the next generation.
Although the VSH phenotype can be maintained by crossing VSH lines by II, but this is an illustration of what can be achieved under idealistic conditions. And very good to know it can be achieved but it fails the field test under "normal beekeeping conditions".
Theoretically, a constant importation of replacement VSH queens into an area over what I suppose, will be a considerable number of decades might get us close..... assuming everyone agreed to import VSH queens ......
Pigs will have flown to the moon before that happens.

 

[Finman]

Boy?
Now I know you've lost it.
As for degrees, I have 3 for your 1 so I have learned a thing, or two, too. Do you not think others can critically analyse data too? It's not that hard.
Mendels laws are the foundation, but, things have moved on a very long way since then. My son is doing work now that my wife didn't even cover at Masters level. Things change. Don't dwell in the past.

And you have a huge need to explain that my life is worth nothing. And if it was, it is not any more.

My boy is a surgeon. He is not interested about varroa. Neither my wife.

My grand son said to me that he will never visit on my summer cottage, because a bee stung him. It was his first visit
.
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[B+.]

And you have a huge need to explain that my life is worth nothing. And if it was, it is not any more.

Not at all. I started this thread with the intention of learning how other independent breeding groups worked. We all have our successes and failures in life but, I don't believe anyone's life is worth nothing

 

[Beefriendly]

As for degrees, I have 3 f

Aren't they a bit old for you these days B+? Sorry I couldn't resist

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[B+.]

it fails the field test under "normal beekeeping conditions".

I don't believe you'll ever find that "free lunch" you seem to keep looking for.
What you call "normal beekeeping conditions" will always dilute the genes of any desirable trait you introduce to an area in time, but, is that any reason not to do it?

 

[Finman]

Theoretically, a constant importation of replacement VSH queens into an area over what I suppose, .

Yes, one more. Me and my professional friend bought VSH queens 2 years ago, but all those colonies died next winter. Such nuisance.

Basic genetic rules of bees: To be alive in spring.
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[Hunajavelho]

Yes, one more. Me and my professional friend bought VSH queens 2 years ago, but all those colonies died next winter. Such nuisance.

Basic genetic rules of bees: To be alive in spring.
.

Obviously the two queens failed the test.

only a test of more than 30 queens will give some realistic measure.

 

[Finman]

Obviously the two queens failed the test.

only a test of more than 30 queens will give some realistic measure.

Quite expencive testing with 30 x 50 euros.= 1500 euros. You treat varroa with that money rest of your life.

 

[Hunajavelho]

It's only relatively recently that bee breeders have had the option of full control of both parental lines and yet great strides have been made in breeding bees more suited to our desires long before island mating and II came on the scene. To dismiss all that work and the continuing work of breeders who choose open mating is nonsense and disrespectful.
99.9% of queens kept in hives all over the world for production and breeding purposes are open mated, most closed breeding programmes themselves only keep a few breeding lines controlled and production queens from them are open mated and the bees themselves have a biological driving force to push them towards many and varied matings, yet to read B +'s comments he believes its his less than 0.1% of bees or of little to no value.
It's great that breeders strive to improve their stock and that some go to meticulous lengths and serious cooperation to do so, but as soon as they start saying their way is the only way of value it's obvious they're full of bsh1+
(imho)

There is nothing wrong with free open mating as long as you only produce production queens and it should be used when producing production queens.
But if you want to breed and improve a stock, the only realistic way is full control, otherwise you loose as much as you gain in every generation and most of all you loose time. It is plain and simple a hopeless gamble - sometimes gamble pays off, but mostly not. Of course you can as B+ already mentioned use free-mated queens for continued breeding, but you have to test them and select.

For example:
Germany, Denmark, Sweden all have isolated mating stations for different race and strain. Works well!

 

[Finman]

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For example:
Germany, Denmark, Sweden all have isolated mating stations for different race and strain. Works well!

Hundreds of stations....?

 

[Hunajavelho]

Quite expencive testing with 30 x 50 euros.= 1500 euros. You treat varroa with that money rest of your life.

That is why you let the breeder or the breeding group do the testing and YOU buy the tested queen.

 

[Hunajavelho]

Hundreds of stations....?

What do you mean?

Sweden has a handful of Buckfast stations. A few ligustica and carnica. One for the black bee. They have a seperate brreding group for all these and test every queen. Proffesionals use mostly tested queens for production of production queens.

Same in Denmark, they use mostly islands. Denmark is one of few countries where some professional beekeepers actually make their living on breeding and queen selling, not honey. This is not a coinsidence, as they have done systematic queen breeding since the early 90'.

Same in Germany.

The finnish national association is trying to develope such program....

 

[B+.]

Hundreds of stations....?

They all have a number of daughters from tested queens to provide the drones. The lineage is published in advance so all you have to do is choose which island you want to send your virgin queens to and make an appointment (they travel in ewk cages like this https://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/album.php?albumid=751&pictureid=3753)

I plan to send daughters of 55-2-70-2016 to Vlieland to mate with Horst Greves drones (6-198-35-2015)

 

[madasafish]

What do you mean?

Sweden has a handful of Buckfast stations. A few ligustica and carnica. One for the black bee. They have a seperate brreding group for all these and test every queen. Proffesionals use mostly tested queens for production of production queens.

Same in Denmark, they use mostly islands. Denmark is one of few countries where some professional beekeepers actually make their living on breeding and queen selling, not honey. This is not a coinsidence, as they have done systematic queen breeding since the early 90'.

Same in Germany.

The finnish national association is trying to develope such program....

Even in the UK as well.

 

[For want of a better word]

Even in the UK as well.

Yes
Colonsay.... and I here that London will soon have a fastbuck mating reserve on the Isle of Dogs?

 

[B+.]

That is why you let the breeder or the breeding group do the testing and YOU buy the tested queen.

or you could buy the mated queens and test them yourself at a fraction of the price.
I have 9 Celle line and 2 NL line to test for other breeders in 2018 (up to 1/3 of our test colonies are dedicated to other breeders)

 

[Beefriendly]

Yes
I here that London will soon have a fastbuck mating reserve on the Isle of Dogs?

Yeah, drones can't fly the few hundred yards over the Thames from Greenwich? To say nothing of the surrounding 5 mile area....
You being silly again?

 

[Noddy]

It never ceases to amaze me how quickly threads here turn into "my dads bigger than your dad" nonsense.

 

[Anduril]

What do you mean?

Sweden has a handful of Buckfast stations. A few ligustica and carnica. One for the black bee. They have a seperate brreding group for all these and test every queen. Proffesionals use mostly tested queens for production of production queens.

Same in Denmark, they use mostly islands. Denmark is one of few countries where some professional beekeepers actually make their living on breeding and queen selling, not honey. This is not a coinsidence, as they have done systematic queen breeding since the early 90'.

Same in Germany.

The finnish national association is trying to develope such program....

http://www.mehilaishoitajat.fi/sicamm-2018/ is this it?

 

[B+.]

Of course you can as B+ already mentioned use free-mated queens for continued breeding, but you have to test them and select.

By "open mating", I still mean controlled mating (i.e. on islands). When mbc et al use the term, they mean random mating in an uncontrolled environment (i.e. not controlled mating).
Incidentally, The Netherlands also uses Vlieland for controlled mating of the NL line.