Breeding Groups

[Swarm]

What problem?
The problem you and your several like minded racist Anglophiles (must be local English bees) seem determined to create with a mishmash of information any Faustian pact would be well advised to stay well clear of.
In the strange weird little worlds you appear to inhabit you seem to think the "old English bee" is some sort of demigoddess...
You have my sympathy, in general she is a modest little bee with much to bee (sic) modest about. But it's great she has her fans and I shall continue to support them because it's a good thing to do...but just not in MY apiaries.....well not any longer...my Amm's are for the chop ASAP, thanks to you.

How many times are you going to use that quote? I think your supposed, support is rather see through tbh, considering it usually follows a load of criticism.
Oddly, there seems to be quite an interest in Amm in my experience.

 

[Beefriendly]

How many times are you going to use that quote? .

As often as I wish. Am I not allowed to present a realistic appraisal of what I have found Amm's to be like in comparison to the other races I keep?
Or is any perceived criticism of the sacred bee "not allowed"?

 

[madasafish]

As often as I wish. Am I not allowed to present a realistic appraisal of what I have found Amm's to be like in comparison to the other races I keep?
Or is any perceived criticism of the sacred bee "not allowed"?

Beekeeping is rather like Brexit. You can argue for years and change no-one's opinions as they tend # to be faith rather than fact based. I gave up arguing on Brexit years ago .. and am not going to start on bee types..


# please note the choice of words..

 

[Swarm]

Well if you want to carry on being boring, that's up to you. When someone never misses an opportunity to discredit Amm and regularly posts in an abusive fashion, then a reasonable person would question your supposed realistic appraisal.

 

[For want of a better word]

As often as I wish. Am I not allowed to present a realistic appraisal of what I have found Amm's to be like in comparison to the other races I keep?
Or is any perceived criticism of the sacred bee "not allowed"?

Lurgid bee https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDVn5DFyqjc

Whoooops .. wrong thread...
however may lighten the infestation of the funny guys?

 

[mbc]

Absolutely.
My choice is to breed carnica, but, if people need to go through an exercise to reach the same conclusion, I'm happy to help.
I'm sure some people will never change their mind no matter how much evidence you give them, but, I have to try. I'm really just trying to facilitate the group coming to a rational decision. I'm not trying to force anything on anyone.
We've never conducted an exercise like this in Bedfordshire before. It will be interesting to see what happens.

Most objective assessments of honey gathering by colonies headed by queens of differing subspecies iirc put buckfast in front followed by ligurian (italian) with Carniolan bees some way behind with many of the colonies taken out of the test because they've swarmed.
I've no doubt you can show your association some very nice bees, anybody could who has sourced top quality queens from established breeding programmes, but this is no objective evidence driven assessment unless other options are given equal scrutiny, and even then it only shows a brief snapshot in time.
I doubt you'll be around long enough for any long term consequences of a breeding program to evince themselves.
This is where the bibba philosophy comes to the fore, it's a long term sustainable approach to bee improvement any individual or group can implement and achieve real world gains with and works with the bees and nature of these islands without being entirely dependant on imports from outside or closed group II breeding efforts dependant on people with the time, skills and resources to keep it going.
With breeding local bees looking for incremental improvements within a free flying gene pool anybody can pick up the baton, efforts with a German bee simply leave the local gene pool even more muddled once the individuals responsible for driving the project give up.
If it's all about short term gain we all might as well buy in Danish buckfasts annually or biannually and to hell with thoughts of improving our own bees mid to long term.

 

[Beefriendly]

When someone never misses an opportunity to discredit Amm and regularly posts in an abusive fashion, then a reasonable person would question your supposed realistic appraisal.

Whoa there sonny..., I often miss opportunities to discredit Amm's .
I don't discredit them either just provide some realistic properties of them, based on keeping aforesaid Amm's.
So what I have said that is incorrect about Amm's?
How about re-dressing the balance if what you think people are saying about Amm's is incorrect?

 

[For want of a better word]

Whoa there sonny..., I often miss opportunities to discredit Amm's .
I don't discredit them either just provide some realistic properties of them, based on keeping aforesaid Amm's.
So what I have said that is incorrect about Amm's?
How about re-dressing the balance if what you think people are saying about Amm's is incorrect?

Finnman would say keep up your medication !

 

[Beefriendly]

Finnman would say keep up your medication !

As usual....
Try sticking to the script for a change or we'll be upping your dosage.

 

[For want of a better word]

As usual....
Try sticking to the script for a change or we'll be upping your dosage.

YOU started it!

 

[Beefriendly]

Oh dear.....

 

[B+.]

Oh dear.....

Yes, indeed.
I asked a simple question that was intended to help me prepare for our agm. The agm has now passed, the proposal voted on and accepted. I thank those who gave proper answers to my question.
I regret that I wasn't able to answer all of the questions posed at the agm but the chairman had only allowed a limited amount of time in the programme for the day. Members with outstanding questions can still email/phone me and I will try to answer them. Thats about the best I can do.

 

[For want of a better word]

Yes, indeed.
I asked a simple question that was intended to help me prepare for our agm. The agm has now passed, the proposal voted on and accepted. I thank those who gave proper answers to my question.
I regret that I wasn't able to answer all of the questions posed at the agm but the chairman had only allowed a limited amount of time in the programme for the day. Members with outstanding questions can still email/phone me and I will try to answer them. Thats about the best I can do.

Moral is ...
Keep LOCAL Association stuff off of the Forum?

 

[B+.]

Moral is ...
Keep LOCAL Association stuff off of the Forum?

Are you the forum censor now?

 

[For want of a better word]

Are you the forum censor now?

Would not want that job for all the tea in China!!

 

[B+.]

Would not want that job for all the tea in China!!

Then don't try to tell me what not to post...there's a good chap.

 

[Brian Bush]

I am getting annoyed at the tone of one or two on this forum. B+ merely reported that he put forward a proposition at his local AGM to start a breeding group with the aim of improving local bees.
Most local bees in this area can be nasty because of their mix of bad genetics. Open mating is uncontrolled so anyone intending to improve bees will have to start with good stock and II for many years. This means that in the first instance bees of a known pedigree will have to be used until the performance of queens over several years is collated and evaluated.
Importation of bees has been going on since the birth of the railways and as I have said before at the Gt Exhibition in 1851 a variety of hives and bees of differing sub-species were exhibited. With regard to imported species the cork is out of the bottle. Pandoras's box has well and truly been opened.
Following Isle of Wight disease it was common for queens to be imported. Brother Adam set out on his quest to breed the perfect bee after only hives with a strong Italian influence survived the outbreak.
AMM is the bee that adapted over many years to the climate of Northern Europe and I would not wish to see it become extinct. If as some people contend it is the perfect bee for the British Isles why have BIBBA and its supporters not made greater efforts to rear and supply queens, with pedigrees and evidence based data to the rest of the population? As I understand it B+ is not being prescriptive about which bees are reared just that sensible data and records are used in selection of breeding stock. I have been told of 3 associations and beekeepers who have, over many years, improved all the stock in their region by passing around queens with the desired characteristics to local beekeepers.
All strains of bees have their supporters and detractors. On this forum, currently there are members who use it to have unjustified digs at other members.
If B+ or anyone else wants to use 'expensive imported queens' with a known history and a great deal of careful record keeping and proven pedigree you should applaud him. He has had the common sense to take advantage of the work of many hundreds of other beekeepers.
Now he is passing on his and their knowledge to others. All beeks, whatever their bees, from mongrels through to purebred AMM and Carnica could learn from him and others.

 

[B+.]

If B+ or anyone else wants to use 'expensive imported queens' with a known history and a great deal of careful record keeping and proven pedigree you should applaud him. He has had the common sense to take advantage of the work of many hundreds of other beekeepers.
Now he is passing on his and their knowledge to others. All beeks, whatever their bees, from mongrels through to purebred AMM and Carnica could learn from him and others.

The truth is that these "expensive imported queens" cost me 45-50 euros plus p&p. I've even had queens given to me by other breeders to test. All they cost me was the p&p (and, sometimes, not even that).
When you work as part of a group, everyone should have the same objectives. Nobody is trying to rip you off or get one over on you. When one triumphs, everyone does, because he shares what he has. This is how people work on the continent, and this is the model I hope to implement in Beds.
I should add; even membership of BeeBreed hasn't cost me a penny! The NBV (Dutch equivalent of the BBKA) has picked up all of the cost. Even as a foreigner, I have never been asked to pay. I've had nothing but help and support from them.

 

[For want of a better word]

All beeks, whatever their bees, from mongrels through to purebred AMM and Carnica could learn from him and others.

My addition to this thread entitled "BREEDING GROUPS", to be fair and reasonable , was to point out that BIBBA has breeding groups throughout the UK, dedicated to bee improvement.
We have a few Breeding Groups here in Cornwall that are using our Native Cornish variant of Amm
Is there some sort of problem with that?

 

[B+.]

Is there some sort of problem with that?

Please re-read post #1
I specifically said I wanted input from local (independent) groups and not BIBBA, etc. I know all about BIBBA and wouldn't go there again.
The intention is to focus on bees in Bedfordshire, and if surrounding counties would like to join in, they're welcome too.
The point is that evidence, and not dogma, should dictate what happens.