Bees need not inverted sugar

[Finman]

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When you read writings of some guys here, you may believe that bees need inverted sugars.

Write in google "honey bee nutrition and inverted sugar",
you will see that inverted sugar gives no advantage in bee nutrition.
Like every animal, bees have in their gut enzymes which split the cane sugar to fructose and glusose, before than sugar goes from gut to blood circulation.

Most of nectar is cane sugar in flowers but bees enzymes split the sugar.
Even if bee as not time to invert sugar for storing. It means nothing harm to wintering.

Stored sugar syrup does not crystallize in the hive during winter. Sometimes it do so but it does not make any harm to wintering.

I have winterd bees 50 years with mere sugar. It is easy to distinquish sugar and real hoey in combs in Spring. Sugar is still syrup but honey has crystals.

In Finland no one use inverted sugar. Bees are feeded mostly at the end of August and they have so sugar enough up to May. Our bees goes over winter ok. At least sugar does not make problems. in Uk winter is easy because bees can make cleansing flight many times during witer. Our bees stay in gabins from Ochtober to March. It is 5-6 months.
Trials to make better DIY wintering sugar than cane sugar have often leaded to death of whole yard.

NO LABORATORY RESEARCHES OR UNIVERSITY RESEARHES SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT INVERTED SUGAR IS BETTER THAN CANE SUGAR.

I just want you to know this fact. No panic, if you do not know what means invert.

.
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[Winker]

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NO LABORATORY RESEARCHES OR UNIVERSITY RESEARHES SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT INVERTED SUGAR IS BETTER THAN CANE SUGAR.

Want to point me in the direction of the paper that says it has 0 advantage

 

[Finman]

Want to point me in the direction of the paper that says it has 0 advantage

the author is MAAREC, which is consortium of 6 beekeeping universities of USA. Publishing year 2000.

Another source is Australian "Fat bees scinny bees".

I have read all nutrition researches which I have found in Internet.
There is not much nutrition specialist where I trust on. I trust on university researching and papers of ministry. Those who sell bee nutritiens, i do not trust much. I have enough examples what they are and what they say.
You find answers from Google, if you want. I do not want to waste time to person, who does want knowledge.

You have presented your facts and knowledge allready.

 

[Winker]

You have presented your facts and knowledge allready.

I have presented zero facts and zero knowledge. I have to go by what other beekeeprs in the UK (not Finland) tell me of their experience of it. I asked you in the other thread for some factual studies on it, but you had the hump about the subject and refused to take me on.

I am still baffled how you can be so sceptical when you admit that you know zero people who use it and there for you have had zero feedback on its over wintering benefits. So really your 50 years of beekeeping knowledge means zero in this conversation, your only objection on this feed is based on price not on nutritional facts.

I on the other hand know many Old Skool (school) UK beekeepers who tell me that their winter losses have been much lower since using it. I see many UK users on here using it. I have read some beekeepers write ups about it, but nothing in the form of a true study. So I guess your just going to have to live with the fact that 8 out of 10 cats prefer it.

 

[Finman]

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I wonder your winter losses when yo do even not have winter.

Find facts and not deliver some carbage. Use google.

UK does not stand behind you and Finland does not stand behind me.

I have scientific reports behind my opinion and you have nothing.
I am not here delivering my personal ideas.
This is serious issue and not some opinion thing. Some level responsibility
is needed in these things.

 

[Ely]

If only british winters were like Finnish real winters. We'd know exactly what to expect every year and maybe our beekeeping would be as easy as yours

 

[Hombre]

For what it is worth - keep the change

Dearie me. invert sugar syrup is only better than cane or beet sugar syrup for the following reasons:

You don't have to mix it up into syrup, it's there already:
1. saving manpower
2. saving time
3. saving equipment.

4. The bees can take it down, with less stress, later in the UK year than they will regular sugar syrup.

5. The UK winter has no big switch like in Finland. We have someone that turns this big green knob thing, a bit like a thermostat. Obviously it in need of a bit of attention this year as it seemed to have been pretty much stuck up until just a few days ago, when suddenly it turned to - full winter setting.

This evening I had tatties, neeps and haggis for my tea, with a dab of chilli sauce and gravy. (Heresy eh PH?), so we feed even ourselves differently here Finman. get used to it. I sincerely hope that you aren't about to lecture me about my dietary intake

I haven't yet had a Mars bar in batter

 

[Finman]

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Yes, I have seen that you spent time so much to all kinds of feeding procedures that you need a time saving program. Is it generated in BBKA or DIY ?
Boild syrup 20 minutes in 114C. Is that the boiling point of 66% syrup or what?

Where we save
- in wooden hives we use pine wood growed on back yard, not cedar from America
- frame cost 1/3 uk
- polybox 1/2 uk
- yields 2x
- we do not save work to extract honey off and sell, many in uk keeps honey as problem
- we do not offer Christmas meal to bees.
- we do not follow daily how many bees fly out or how many died
- we do not nurse bees with bed and breakfast method. We put them work.

saving work!

I fill my one box hive feeder twice and 2 box feeder 3 times. i do not feed bees between
September and April. We cannot.

Your savings......you start your fondant feeding in Autumn when you have not proper feeding..
You save manpower so much that hives remain unfeeded.

 

[Into the lions den]

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NO LABORATORY RESEARCHES OR UNIVERSITY RESEARHES SUPPORT THE IDEA THAT INVERTED SUGAR IS BETTER THAN CANE SUGAR.

No? So the raft of documantation I have seen out of Germany is all fictitious then? Would you therefore care to make this assertion to Sudzucker, the makers of Api-Invert, who have spent a small fortune on researching bee feeds in conjunction with a university department in Bavaria? I had lots of copies of the stuff here...........until the last time I gutted my office and now cannot find it. Very professional work.

For a start the studies you quote are for using HFCS. No-one pretends that to be the equal of the specially developed products. Poorer wintering with those is not unexpected. HFCS works best when blended with ordinary syrup 50/50.

However, Api-Invert, which is the market leader, Ambrosia, and other types are NOT simple invert sugars. They are a formulated product designed, for autumn feeding especially, of honeybees, and about one third of the sugar in them is actually sucrose. They are superb bee feeds, and, despite intensive negative marketing by the agents for Ambrosia making allegations to the contrary, ALL are enzymatically produced and are therefore NOT acidic.

I DO agree with your negative observations on home made invert syrup. Boiling and adding acids of whatever type is not smart, and if that was your only choice I would go with the plain white sugar syrup.

 

[Winker]

I DO agree with your negative observations on home made invert syrup. Boiling and adding acids of whatever type is not smart, and if that was your only choice I would go with the plain white sugar syrup.

Inverted syrup does not need acids to make it into inverted syrup. The same job can be done by keeping the syrup at a simmering heat(50-60c) for 20 minuets without any acids. Acid, such as occurs in lemon juice or cream of tartar, just act to accelerate the conversion of sucrose to invert.

 

[UEAHoneyBeeMan]

I found some interesting research, not sure it advances the conversation muich but it was an interesting read.
"Surveys conducted among Austrian beekeepers (Brodschneider et al., 2010) also suggest that the type of carbohydrates fed to colonies (sucrose, invert sugar or starch syrup) did not affect overwintering mortality of colonies when supplementation was done between July and October."

Nutrition and health in honey bees
Robert Brodschneider and Karl Crailsheim
Apidologie 41 (3) 278-294 (2010)
DOI: http://dx.doi.org/10.1051/apido/2010012

 

[Finman]

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I looked from google, what is the content of starch syrup. They are various. They may have maltose, glucose, fructose, disacharides and monosacharides. It may have high content fructose and so on..
It seems to depend on what enzymes engineers want to put in processes.

 

[hailtryfan]

I haven't yet had a Mars bar in batter

You should try one cos they're yummy

 

[Erichalfbee]

You should try one cos they're yummy

Do you know......I always thought these were a myth. Do they really exist?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Do you know......I always thought these were a myth. Do they really exist?

Yes - I've also tried a creme egg in batter - can't say I was taken by either!

 

[newportbuzz]

you want to try a curly wirly lots of batter coverage per choc. very tasty.

 

[Hebeegeebee]

Ice cream and marmite sandwiches. Much better.

I think we may be going off topic a little.

 

[drstitson]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-Fiddlers-Elbow-serves-deep-fried-BUTTER.html

 

[Ely]

Think I'll stick to a nice and healthy pizza

 

[BeeJayBee]

Think I'll stick to a nice and healthy pizza

Deep fried, of course!