Beekeeping without a queen excluder?

[nonstandard]

There seems to be a lot of talk about beekeeping without using a queen excluder on the forum at the moment; would any those who have tried it or who are currently using this method be prepared to explain the rudiments of this technique, its advantages and any pitfalls?

I have found an article from the American Beekeeping Journal – August, 1985 by G. W. HAYES, JR titled 'Queen excluder or honey excluder?' on the web which has made interesting reading but I'd be interested to learn more before having a go myself.

 

[Finman]

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There are many ways to use excluder.

I have used it so that up to main yield bees can fill the hive freely with brood and honey.
Then at the last half of main yield you separate brood and honey.

Just now my hives are full of brood and not much honey.
When forager number is low and brood area is high, the nectar goes to larvae's mouth, and a huge amount of pollen.
One box of brood need one box amount of pollen. And now most of hives have 2 boxes brood.

5 weeks later larva will be a forager.

With that system many uses excluder on the late half of main yield.

Some put the queen into a one box prison during main yield to limit the amount of laying.

I have tried many tricks like killing a queen in main yield.

But however to keep them freely in the hive has given best yields and biggest winter clusters.

I must say that these hives are slow to nurse. they are 1,7- 2 metre high giants.
In good flow they can take in 80 kg honey, like from spring rape. Even 50 kg in a week is possible if pastures are splended.

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[Erichalfbee]

I have tried this for the first time this year and the bees ARE using the space.
I have 14 x 12s and in one hive most of the brood is in the lower big box and in the other most in the top "super"
Initial inspections were a bit daunting,having to look through all the boxes, but I have got used to it now. The next thing is I need the courage to just routinely inspect the top box only unless something is up. I have no qualms about spinning shallow frames that have had brood in them. How I am going to get them all back into the one box for winter is another matter.....scratch head!!!
Put the shallow under the deep?

 

[Little John]

When running horizontal hives, no Q/E is the norm, as she'll (usually) not cross over a comb of honey.

With the Bienekiste horizontal hives (which I've not had any hands-on experience with) they simply hang a 4" full-width vertical board from the roof, between the brood combs and the honey combs. The queen will not cross over such a comb-free barrier.

I'm currently running a double-brood National without a Q/E, and now have sealed worker and drone brood in a super. Which is not a problem in itself, but I'd planned on doing a Demaree in a week or so, and now I'll have to do this with just one Q/E in order to let the drones out !

Bees - don't you just love 'em ?

LJ

 

[Finman]

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The whole idea is that the queen lays as much it can.

Just now my every hive has brood in top most box, even if biggest hives have 4 boxes.
I love that.

Later I put 3 langstroth box down and the rest supers...4-6 boxes.
Bees will have brood downstairs and honey upstairs. What I am interested is cappe honey what I must extract and return to the hive.

3 langstroth boxes are enough for brood. then they have some drones in supers and queen cells. That is not problem.

I move brood frames down and lift honey frames up from brood boxes.

The main thing is that they carry honey from fields as much as possible. No matter where they put it. However it is home after all.

Just now hives carry raspberry nectar with full loads. They spread nectar to rippen everywhere.
Should I tell them rder, order, order!!!

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[nonstandard]

Finman, does this mean that you use one size of box throughout so you can move the frames with brood down?

 

[Finman]

Finman, does this mean that you use one size of box throughout so you can move the frames with brood down?

I use Langstroth and medium boxes mixed. They can be in what ever order.
It does not limit what I do in hives.

When I join for main yield two hives, the hive gets at once 3-4 boxes brood.
You may imagine what kind of foraging gang becomes from 3 brood boxes.

Chaos exists only in July when main yield comes in. Then bees rearrange the brood area again and move honey where it belongs.

But when brood box has honey frames, or there is brood patch in a honey frame, there is no idea to put bees to move honey to another frame, if the frames is half full honey. Bees have better to do in the hive.

 

[Finman]

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It seems that many beeks here think that

- here is a brood box.
- now I put an excluder and honey box.
- then bees start to fill honey box.
- then I add another box when first is full

But the basics is that beehive does not work at all this way.
This is totally against bees' instinct and what bees do is swarming.

 

[Finman]

I have tried this for the first time this year and the bees ARE using the space.

How I am going to get them all back into the one box for winter is another matter?

My normal hives have 6 langstroth boxes in summer. Then flowers stop blooming after 10. August. However bees fly and seach food. They die very fast and after 3 weeks you can push the bees into one or two boxes.
And the result depends, how much hive had brood before that collapsing. Emerged brood will make a cluster and feeder bees and foragers die quickly.

 

[For want of a better word]

I run a number of colonies without a queen excluder.. mainly as I am not interested in the honey harvest, but the amount of brood bees I can take to make up Apideas, and split into nuc boxes.
The queen will expand from one standard National brood, to brood and 1/2 when the season gets going.
Another full sized brood box with drawn comb is added between the brood and now full brood and 1/2 as next step, then more supers on top of the brood and 1/2.

No excluder is used, the queen tends not to go up to the top of the supers, and I get some honey to extract from these. if there is brood in them they get moved down, and stored honey up.

It works here in the Tamar Valley

Seems there is a BIG difference in climate between here, the rest of the country and quite definitely Finnland!
AND not forgetting I am talking A m ligusta NZ variant Italian bees.
The Amm colonies tend to go to brood and 1/2 slowly at the beginning of the season, and then start packing in honey with a peak in brood mid to end July.... smaller ( more manageable ) colonies... you just need more of them.

Only use a qe for producing q- queen rearing colonies and for AS... (and for filtering out drones for brood bees in Apidea going to isolated Amm mating area

I have a Chinese wooden one hanging on the wall as an Object'd'Art !!

 

[Finman]

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I have now in every hive brood in top most boxes. When hives get honey yield, brooding stays down and upper boxes will be full of honey. At least last 45 years.

If I over ventilate even biggest hives, queen goes to top most box to lay.

 

[boca]

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3 langstroth boxes are enough for brood. then they have some drones in supers and queen cells. That is not problem.

Do I understand correctly that in July if I find queen cells in honey supers it is not a problem and I don't have to see it as a sign of swarming preparation?

Of course with a young queen hatched in June.

 

[Finman]

Do I understand correctly that in July if I find queen cells in honey supers it is not a problem .

Problem or not but they have swarming fever then.

 

[Stickyfingers]

I use Langstroth and medium boxes mixed. They can be in what ever order.
It does not limit what I do in hives.

Finman do you rotate your brood boxes?
is it too late to try this as running double brood already?

 

[Finman]

Finman do you rotate your brood boxes?
is it too late to try this as running double brood already?

Rotating brood boxes is best when you add a third box which is super.
So they may move the honey from frames to super.

If you see coffee brown frames there, put them to second box. Later you move them over the excluder. Bees come out, frames are filled with honey. After exctraction take frames from usage.

If you see there only 5 frames, put them next to brood over the excluder and the rest foundations.

Rotation makes the bees consume the comb area evenly.

 

[Stickyfingers]

Rotating brood boxes is best when you add a third box which is super.
So they may move the honey from frames to super.

If you see coffee brown frames there, put them to second box. Later you move them over the excluder. Bees come out, frames are filled with honey. After exctraction take frames from usage.

If you see there only 5 frames, put them next to brood over the excluder and the rest foundations.

Rotation makes the bees consume the comb area evenly.

Not sure I understand. Do you rotate without excluder and drop brood onto lower box?

 

[Bitbybit]

I am new to this but I am working without queen excluders. A local beek has devised a method - all boxes are the same, all frames are the same. The stack becomes quite large during the season and the upper boxes should become filled with honey as the brood decreases towards the winter. The advantages would seem to be that it is easy to keep the comb fresh as boxes are always moving upwards, its easy to move frames between hives as they are all the same size, AS should be easier as again all frames are the same size. The disadvantage I think is that the hives become quite large and all boxes need to be inspected as the queen has freedom of movement, I am told that the queen will not really venture into the upper boxes as these are storing honey and that lifting the boxes on the top half of the hive to check for queen cells is usually sufficient. He has called this the Rose Hive Method if you want to google it. I don't have the experience to compare this to any other method of beekeeping but if you are interested in not using a QE it is worth a look.

 

[Stickyfingers]

I am new to this but I am working without queen excluders. A local beek has devised a method - all boxes are the same, all frames are the same. The stack becomes quite large during the season and the upper boxes should become filled with honey as the brood decreases towards the winter. The advantages would seem to be that it is easy to keep the comb fresh as boxes are always moving upwards, its easy to move frames between hives as they are all the same size, AS should be easier as again all frames are the same size. The disadvantage I think is that the hives become quite large and all boxes need to be inspected as the queen has freedom of movement, I am told that the queen will not really venture into the upper boxes as these are storing honey and that lifting the boxes on the top half of the hive to check for queen cells is usually sufficient. He has called this the Rose Hive Method if you want to google it. I don't have the experience to compare this to any other method of beekeeping but if you are interested in not using a QE it is worth a look.

 

[Mike a]

When Tim released his book there was a thread on this forum.

IMHO a very good method which I mostly practice.

 

[Finman]

The stack becomes quite large during the season and the upper boxes should become filled with honey as the brood decreases towards the winter. .

Towards the winter....there is late summer before autumn and then comes winter. In later summer plants stop blooming when plants prepare for wintering.

The hive must reach top size before main yield, which starts here about 25.6.
If a hive not reach top size, it is better to join then. Otherwise the hive will not rippen early enough for foraging and the yield goes into mouths of expanding colony.

The hive fills and cap the box after box. They must be extracted when they are capped. Then empty above the rood box.

It is easy to see the yield from the size of hive if summer is normal.
If there is 3 brood boxed and as super 2 langstroths and 3 mediums, they will fill the supers.

2 langstroth super = 50 kg honey
3 mediums = 45 kg honey
= 90 -110 kg, because there is something in brood boxes too

The honey must be extracted several times in the summer.

In late summer the third brood box is half full honey = 10-15 kg.
and second box has usually at leat two frames honey (sidemost) =5 kg.
I take it away before autumn feeding. I leave only 5 kg for winter.

When a hive is large, it is totally the pastures which gives the honey yield.
If there are only well cultivated corn fields in the lanscape, hive will not get much.
If the hive must fly over 1 km to reach pastures, it will loose 50% of its yield for distance.

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