Beekeeping myths

[user 6228]

"packing fails to conserve the energy of bees because the winter cluster does not attempt to heat the inside of the hive" CL Farrar 1949
“A colony does not heat the hive cavity — as we do in our home “cavities.” They heat only the cluster, and the hive temps around
the cluster and toward the edges of the box approach ambient temperature." - Marla Spivak Abj April 2021
"bees do not heat the hive — they heat themselves in a cluster." Meghan Milbrath Abj Jan 2020

 

[user 6228]

bees dont read the same books as us

The "books they read" are on Advanced thermofluid engineering, where as some of those studying bees didnt read or didnt understand high school theory of heat and heat transfer 101.

 

[user 20297]

Being a student of The Pink Panther, I assumed this thread was about wax myths.
Wax myths are a nuisance if they get into the rheum where you store your drawn comb.

...just one query; should it be "drurn curm" ?

bees dont read the same books as us

.......you mean that's actually a myth...and that they do?

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

"packing fails to conserve the energy of bees because the winter cluster does not attempt to heat the inside of the hive" CL Farrar 1949
“A colony does not heat the hive cavity — as we do in our home “cavities.” They heat only the cluster, and the hive temps around
the cluster and toward the edges of the box approach ambient temperature." - Marla Spivak Abj April 2021
"bees do not heat the hive — they heat themselves in a cluster." Meghan Milbrath Abj Jan 2020

These are myths? It's very much in line with what I thought, or used to think I thought, and now I think I just don't know.

(Separately) A couple of years ago, when I became aware of beekeeping myths, I started collecting them from here and elsewhere and wrote a couple of articles for my BKA newsletter. Normally it's a pretty thankless task writing a newsletter - sending all these words into a vacuum - but these articles got more positive feedback than any before or since. People liked to laugh at these myths (and probably felt good about themselves that they no longer believed them themselves). One member (NDB) added to the list of myths with: ‘The first emerging virgin queen pipes to locate other queens, then goes around and kills them’. (He added a couple of paragraphs by way of explanation.)

 

[Erichalfbee]

Queen leads the swarm out.

 

[Garry R]

bees dont read the same books as us

Do bees read mythteries where the good guys get framed and sometimes robbed.

 

[user 6228]

These are myths? It's very much in line with what I thought, or used to think I thought, and now I think I just don't know.

They are statements that rely on an explicit or implicit switch of the use of the English word "heat". "Heat" can mean raise the temperature, or it can mean the amount of energy , or it can mean the transfer of energy.

if ""bees do not heat the hive" actually means "Honey bees do not succeed in significantly raising the temperature inside the cavity" then that statement is true.

Then we have a statement " the hive temps around the cluster and toward the edges of the box approach ambient temperature."

This is used to infer that with bees in cluster that insulation is rendered effectively in-operative. This implying no significant temperature difference means no significant heat transfer. They have switched meaning from raising temperature to energy transfer and equated the two. This is complete "£$%^&

This because in equilibrium every joule of energy the bees produce is transferred out through the cluster, through the cavity and through the hive walls. The low temperature difference between outside and inside of the hive is because the bees have dramatically reduced heat production and the hive has rubbish thermal resistance.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

...just one query; should it be "drurn curm" ?

only around the Humber estuary

 

[philipm]

Biggest beekeeping myth that everyone is an expert.

 

[rdartington]

Biggest beekeeping myth that everyone is an expert.

Next biggest is that the UK National hive is good for bees.

(can’t resist adding that one!)

 

[Ian123]

Next biggest is that the UK National hive is good for bees.

(can’t resist adding that one!)

“This January - or earlier - I have lost 6 colonies out of 13 long hives”

……couldn’t resist that one!

 

[user 20297]

Next biggest is that the UK National hive is good for bees.

(can’t resist adding that one!)

I could do with your assertion being true for me; if it was I would have fewer thriving colonies and a bit more time to do things other than beekeeping.

 

[pargyle]

Myths please not mythering ...

 

[JamezF]

"My bees never swarm, they just supercede."

I'm fairly sure evolution would select against that pretty rapidly.

James

 

[B_north]

Two of my favourites

First year nucs don't swarm - tell that to my thrice swarming new hive

First year nucs don't need varroa treatments till their second summer. Pfffft!!!

 

[Cuckmere couple]

there is such a thing as 'swarmy bees'

 

[BeeKeyPlayer]

They are statements that rely on an explicit or implicit switch of the use of the English word "heat". "Heat" can mean raise the temperature, or it can mean the amount of energy , or it can mean the transfer of energy.

if ""bees do not heat the hive" actually means "Honey bees do not succeed in significantly raising the temperature inside the cavity" then that statement is true.

Then we have a statement " the hive temps around the cluster and toward the edges of the box approach ambient temperature."

This is used to infer that with bees in cluster that insulation is rendered effectively in-operative. This implying no significant temperature difference means no significant heat transfer. They have switched meaning from raising temperature to energy transfer and equated the two. This is complete "£$%^&

This because in equilibrium every joule of energy the bees produce is transferred out through the cluster, through the cavity and through the hive walls. The low temperature difference between outside and inside of the hive is because the bees have dramatically reduced heat production and the hive has rubbish thermal resistance.

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking. I've reread it several times, and - probably due to a lack of experience of science or engineering - I still don't see that there is anything fundamentally wrong, much less mythical, in the statements by Spivak and Milbrath. You may well be right that their use of the word 'heat' lacks precision but the message I take from what they say seems sensible enough.

 

[The Poot]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking. I've reread it several times, and - probably due to a lack of experience of science or engineering - I still don't see that there is anything fundamentally wrong, much less mythical, in the statements by Spivak and Milbrath. You may well be right that their use of the word 'heat' lacks precision but the message I take from what they say seems sensible enough.

I’m with you there. I’m totally ignorant of the science, having been excluded from both physics and chemistry…but what I observe is fondant going gooey from warmth that must have been generated by the bees, that has escaped the cluster. So I deduce they keep themselves warm and lose some of it, enough to warm fondant above. That’ll do me.

 

[rdartington]

I could do with your assertion being true for me; if it was I would have fewer thriving colonies and a bit more time to do things other than beekeeping.

There can be some confusion on this .
Bees can ‘survive’ in low efficiency cavities, even in open fronted caves.
Bees can ’thrive’ in National type hives if the bkr intervenes to replace 1/3 of brood frames per year - tops up winter stores with sugar feeds and with fondant in spring. Bkrs who keep bees to obtain honey are happy to accept this degree of support - but colonies left in abandoned hives do not do well I belive, so I say that it is a myth to say that National hives are good for the bees.

Bees can possibly (not yet proven I believe) have best chance to perpetuate naturally as a species (their biological aim) , without annual intervention, if introduced to long-lasting hives specifically designed to enable the bees to build combs that best meet the biological needs of the colony. The old German Skeps, twice the height of UK skeps, were possibly very good for the bees. The Layens hive may be well suited to Spanish bees in the Spanish climate. The Golden Hive may be good for the German climate. Natural bkprs in UK are trying various designs but seemingly without very clear aims on the needs of the bees. I myself am trying 11x18ins frames in an extended and supered hive to see how bees appear to respond but with too small numbers to prove anything.

The UK lacks any ‘beekeeping institute’, more’s the pity. BBKA is an association of bkprs, concerned with bkprs needs, without any research apiary addessing the interests of the bees. The Golden Hive
was designed by the Mellifera Association and immediately tested with 100 hives before publication. The English translation in 2021 is titled ‘Keeping bees simply and respectfully’.

This 11x18 frame was taken from a recent dead hive ( an invitation for a conventional response that it was not any good then, but colony losses have been high this spring for a possible range of reasons). The frame shows the brood patch midway between the stores at the top and empty cells at the bottom that give ample room for dumping nectar and for foragers at night-time - 50% of bees can be foragers in summer-time.

 

[user 6228]

Thanks for taking the time to explain your thinking. I've reread it several times, and - probably due to a lack of experience of science or engineering - I still don't see that there is anything fundamentally wrong, much less mythical, in the statements by Spivak and Milbrath. You may well be right that their use of the word 'heat' lacks precision but the message I take from what they say seems sensible enough.

imprecision leads to incorrect conclusions. Their conclusion is because the is low temperature difference, in one set of circumstances , then insulation has no effect in almost all circumstances.

here is an equivent but anthropomorphic statement

I make no attempt to heat the space underneath my jumper. The temperature difference is small, therefore I should never wear jumpers

Heat(energy) MUST flow from high temperatures to low temperatures. The rate of flow is determined by the material its flowing through and the temperature difference
The statement "make no attempt to heat the space underneath my jumper." is ludicrous because i don't have a say in the matter.


similarly for the bees. My and their objectives are irrelevant. Energy WILL flow. For the bees in cluster they are typically producing 7W to 20W. Their surface temperature is 10C. That energy has to go somewhere. As it passes through the hive wall it produces a temperature difference. That the difference is small is down to properties of the hive.