Early season brain twister - honeybee behaviour

[elainemary]

Every season just when I thought I’d understood bee behaviour something happens that surprises me. It’s still early in the season and despite the fact that many of my colonies are up to 10-12 frames brood no swarm preps, yet.

However, I found 5 cells in a double Nuc this week. Look just like swarm cells on the edge of a frame. It’s my only Nuc where I couldn’t find the queen to remark and clip though some eggs and young larva so she was there. So on Saturday last week I decided to slot in a small queen excluder to find out which box she was in and feed

Wednesday, 4 days later, 5 cells 4 were open and 1 only just sealed, on the edge of one frame in the top box where most of the brood was. No cells anywhere else on any other frames. What???? I’d been through those frames 4 times last Saturday, eggs there no way did I miss queen cups with eggs in! Though hang on maybe they were slimming her down as fewer than usual. Did I miss 1 play cup with an egg and the queen flew in the misty cold wind on Tuesday….odd given the poor weather

No sign of the queen as can’t see eggs so does suggest they were considering swarming. Doesn’t compute with all my other colonies, much more prolific and are not making swarm preps including queens from the same lineage as her

Only other thought is did I inadvertently set up a queen right queen rearing Ben Harden type situation? So, queen was in bottom box, reduced pheromone in top box hence the 4 cells.

As it happens and luck would have it in those 4 days and I gave the colony a really good feed and added a great frame of pollen and honey on the Saturday. So I’m harvesting 2 of the cells and bingo early start to queen rearing. Drones in all my colonies The queen I’ve lost was lovely and calm, nice traits.

Comments / thoughts from honeybee behaviour experts appreciated pls!

 

[Antipodes]

Every season just when I thought I’d understood bee behaviour something happens that surprises me. It’s still early in the season and despite the fact that many of my colonies are up to 10-12 frames brood no swarm preps, yet.

However, I found 5 cells in a double Nuc this week. Look just like swarm cells on the edge of a frame. It’s my only Nuc where I couldn’t find the queen to remark and clip though some eggs and young larva so she was there. So on Saturday last week I decided to slot in a small queen excluder to find out which box she was in and feed

Wednesday, 4 days later, 5 cells 4 were open and 1 only just sealed, on the edge of one frame in the top box where most of the brood was. No cells anywhere else on any other frames. What???? I’d been through those frames 4 times last Saturday, eggs there no way did I miss queen cups with eggs in! Though hang on maybe they were slimming her down as fewer than usual. Did I miss 1 play cup with an egg and the queen flew in the misty cold wind on Tuesday….odd given the poor weather

No sign of the queen as can’t see eggs so does suggest they were considering swarming. Doesn’t compute with all my other colonies, much more prolific and are not making swarm preps including queens from the same lineage as her

Only other thought is did I inadvertently set up a queen right queen rearing Ben Harden type situation? So, queen was in bottom box, reduced pheromone in top box hence the 4 cells.

As it happens and luck would have it in those 4 days and I gave the colony a really good feed and added a great frame of pollen and honey on the Saturday. So I’m harvesting 2 of the cells and bingo early start to queen rearing. Drones in all my colonies The queen I’ve lost was lovely and calm, nice traits.

Comments / thoughts from honeybee behaviour experts appreciated pls!

My guess would be that the queen died around the time that you made your observations when you couldn't find the queen to mark and clip (not sure if that was Saturday?), or on Saturday last week around the time the excluder was fitted......

 

[elainemary]

My guess would be that the queen died around the time that you made your observations when you couldn't find the queen to mark and clip (not sure if that was Saturday?), or on Saturday last week around the time the excluder was fitted......

Astute conclusion on your part, Thankyou. Do you think I might have accidentally killed her? I did worry about that as I felt bad I’d opened them for too long. I needed to find and clip her as I had other plans for her. I noticed clumps of bees on the base of the top box frames when I moved to replace the top box over the excluder. I tried to move them gently by tilting the box and with a tiny waff of cool smoke. I took my time to v gently lower the top box so bees had the time to move out the way. The cells don’t look like emergency cells and in the wrong place but that might have been just where the right aged eggs were available as I definitely didn’t see any queen cups when checking to find the queen.

When I fed on Tuesday night I noticed more noise coming from this colony and went round pressing my ear up to other Nucs to compare which seemed much quieter. About half a dozen bees were on the landing board of the Nuc almost like guards, others in the same apiary were not exhibiting this behaviour

Will not know for sure, I’ve never accidentally crushed a queen before. Always something new to learn. Love the complexity and ambiguity of beekeeping. Guess if it was always black and white we’d soon get bored and give it up!

 

[elainemary]

My guess would be that the queen died around the time that you made your observations when you couldn't find the queen to mark and clip (not sure if that was Saturday?), or on Saturday last week around the time the excluder was fitted......

Yes checked looking for her last Saturday and that’s when I decided to add the excluder so i could find out where new eggs were after feeding - top or bottom box - process of elimination! Checked for her on the Wednesday 4 days later but as my other post states I had a hunch something was ‘up’ when observing behaviour and noises the night before, Tuesday.

 

[Antipodes]

The cells don’t look like emergency cells and in the wrong place but that might have been just where the right aged eggs were available as I definitely didn’t see any queen cups when checking to find the queen.

I don't think you necessarily crushed her or killed her, although I suppose it's possible from what you say. I had a colony a couple of years back where a nice fairly young queen died (disappeared) suddenly and I was certain I hadn't crushed her on the last inspection, as I remembered lifting the middle frame seeing her clearly, and then making certain she was not crushed when I gently eased it back in. I agree that where they are located is probably just where the right aged eggs/ larvae were, and also they seem to frequently cap one emergency cell at about the "four days later" stage and sometimes/not infrequently, they are not on every brood frame. Swarm cells are generally more spread out in age from what I've seen too.

 

[elainemary]

I don't think you necessarily crushed her or killed her, although I suppose it's possible from what you say. I had a colony a couple of years back where a nice fairly young queen died (disappeared) suddenly and I was certain I hadn't crushed her on the last inspection, as I remembered lifting the middle frame seeing her clearly, and then making certain she was not crushed when I gently eased it back in. I agree that where they are located is probably just where the right aged eggs/ larvae were, and also they seem to frequently cap one emergency cell at about the "four days later" stage and sometimes/not infrequently, they are not on every brood frame. Swarm cells are generally more spread out in age from what I've seen too.

Thanks good to exchange theories and explore what happened. Looking more closely at the photos, the cells look like adapted worker cells even though they are on the edge of the frame. Don’t look like cells made from play cups - what do you think?
As the weather had been poor I reckon the queens egg rate had lowered not from slimming down in swarm preps but from little nectar flow. So eggs selected were the only ones available at the right age.

As an aside, my colonies don’t tend to make many swarm cells - usually max 5-7 and usually on only a couple of frames. Still, don’t think on reflection they are swarm cells and think the photo supports this.

Sadly I must have harmed her. But hopefully as I coincidentally fed the colony well afterwards a problem has been turned into an opportunity.

 

[Antipodes]

Thanks good to exchange theories and explore what happened. Looking more closely at the photos, the cells look like adapted worker cells even though they are on the edge of the frame. Don’t look like cells made from play cups - what do you think?
As the weather had been poor I reckon the queens egg rate had lowered not from slimming down in swarm preps but from little nectar flow. So eggs selected were the only ones available at the right age.

As an aside, my colonies don’t tend to make many swarm cells - usually max 5-7 and usually on only a couple of frames. Still, don’t think on reflection they are swarm cells and think the photo supports this.

Sadly I must have harmed her. But hopefully as I coincidentally fed the colony well afterwards a problem has been turned into an opportunity.

Agreed with what you say. Perhaps the workers just turned on her for some reason following the inspection? I've noticed problems like that (in some springs) when there is little by way of a nectar flow. Unfortunate and unexpected things can happen then....

 

[GaryH]

Astute conclusion on your part, Thankyou. Do you think I might have accidentally killed her? I did worry about that as I felt bad I’d opened them for too long. I needed to find and clip her as I had other plans for her. I noticed clumps of bees on the base of the top box frames when I moved to replace the top box over the excluder. I tried to move them gently by tilting the box and with a tiny waff of cool smoke. I took my time to v gently lower the top box so bees had the time to move out the way. The cells don’t look like emergency cells and in the wrong place but that might have been just where the right aged eggs were available as I definitely didn’t see any queen cups when checking to find the queen.

When I fed on Tuesday night I noticed more noise coming from this colony and went round pressing my ear up to other Nucs to compare which seemed much quieter. About half a dozen bees were on the landing board of the Nuc almost like guards, others in the same apiary were not exhibiting this behaviour

Will not know for sure, I’ve never accidentally crushed a queen before. Always something new to learn. Love the complexity and ambiguity of beekeeping. Guess if it was always black and white we’d soon get bored and give it up!

If you marked the Q the workers may have ‘balled’ her

 

[Erichalfbee]

If you marked the Q the workers may have
‘balled’ her

Elaine couldn’t find her.

It’s my only Nuc where I couldn’t find the queen to remark and clip