Attracting a swarm

[Beefriendly]

Roger never suggested it was a proven technique, )

Yes, that was what I said as well. Thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[pargyle]

In my early days I had two colonies from hell, both of the same lineage. I got advice from mentor. The one in the national hive, I did manage to find the queen, but found it all rather daunting. She was culled and replaced and all settled down. The second colony was in a Warre with some awkward comb. My mentor advised petrol, which I was not very happy with, but I did. Looking back on it he was right. Not resorted to such measures since, but I believe it can still be the right call, in the right situation

Yes, with the largely free comb that they build in Warre hives and the fact that the queen can roam over several boxes it's really not easy and with bees trying to kill you very daunting... more so in the early stages of beekeeping.

With a bit of experience or another beekeeper alongside I would have perhaps suggested putting another conventional hive with frames of foundation where the warre was and move the Warre as far away as possible to bleed off the flyers. I'd shake the bees off any frames of stores in the warre and find a way of putting them in the new hive.

Leave them for a day to settle down and then put a seond brood box on top of the new hive over a queen excluder. Go though the warre a comb at a time shaking the bees into the new box top box over the queen excluder. Smoke or water spray after each comb to drive the bees down through the excluder. Somewhere along the road you should find the queen and she's a goner and eventually you will have a queenless colony, with no brood who you can introduce a new queen to.

Sacrifice the brood from the Warre as you really don't want any more of thiose bees ...

It's not something I've ever done with a Warre but I would have probably had a go like that before resorting to petrol but I can see why you did. No judgement from me.

 

[Jake]

Wow this thread has got quite big I haven't been on here in a couple of days, all really interesting read, I have spoken to the other keeper on the golf course and he will help with hive if there is issues with aggression as he was doing same thing to his last Yr so at least there is help if needed. I start a 5 week theory in a week or so followed buy 8 week practical all 2 hr sessions on a monday

 

[deemann1]

I would not recommend a beginner to requeen a nasty hive alone ..
I had one of those colonies from hell last season
On one inspection the stings in my gloves and suit was in the hundreds it took over 40 minutes to get them off me , quiet a scary experience!!
So on the next inspection I went with my suit on and a few layers beneath and wrapped duck tape over my gloves which worked. I took off supers and had 3 nucs open all with a frame of open larvae and eggs and split the colony in three with out looking for queen, a couple of mins later I used my ears to find the nuc with the queen in it in a much more manageable size and squashed her ,Bitch, ...
The 3 frames that came with me were marked and put in the centre of each nuc .only having added mostly sealed brood to each nuc from nasty hive the remaining put back in the hives that the frames of eggs came from .
The following week I knocked down any queen cells that were not on the selected frames, yep they built emergency QCs and are doing fine now

 

[Codford]

Back on thread (sort of): Is there any reason why you can’t use a complete hive filled with frames and undrawn wax as a bait hive - or do you stand more chance with an empty hive? Over to the collective wisdom of the Forum...

 

[bingevader]

My mentor advised petrol, which I was not very happy with, but I did. Looking back on it he was right. Not resorted to such measures since, but I believe it can still be the right call, in the right situation

Nope, never, don't take up beekeeping EVER, if you think that burning a hive is a reasonable solution for anything other than foul brood!

This is the beginner's section, for goodness sake!

If you don't think you are going to be able to handle the bees, don't bother starting.

Take up knitting, no, scratch that, you might lose an eye!

Take up tiddly winks instead.

 

[user 819]

5 or 6 years ago I had a winter/spring dead out hive at an out apiar, I removed all the dead bees etc ,etc and forgot about it for a good few weeks as I hadn't got spare equipment with me to replace it or another colony. On returning to collect it for cleaning/serialising I paid little attention to it and whipped the roof and cb off, to my surprise a swarm had moved in and were doing very well a bonus was they were good tempered.

 

[pargyle]

Nope, never, don't take up beekeeping EVER, if you think that burning a hive is a reasonable solution for anything other than foul brood!

This is the beginner's section, for goodness sake!

Just because it is the beginners section ...the petrol is not there to set fire to the hive.

You just seal the box up and pour half a pint of petrol in. The fumes kill the bees in a few minutes. You have to discard the frames - they can be burnt but not until the petrol has evaporated.

The brood box can be aired and then thoroughly washed out.

Beginners please note .. Pouring a cupful of petrol into a hive and setting it alight won't only kill the bees it has the potential to kill you, or at very least cause some very serious burns.

Personally, I would consider killing bees with petrol as the ultimate last resort - unless they were infected with AFB and then it would be under the supervision of a Bee Inspector who knew what he was doing.

 

[Madge]

...

Personally, I would consider killing bees with petrol as the ultimate last resort - unless they were infected with AFB and then it would be under the supervision of a Bee Inspector who knew what he was doing.

Not even an ‘ultimate resort’! If you can’t handle an aggressive colony - no matter how aggressive - stop keeping bees. As already said - the exception is a colony with AFB.

 

[Poly Hive]

Meanwhile to answer the question.

Actually no an empty hive may on the surface seem a good idea but.........

Swarms are primed to build comb and to do it fast. An empty hive will soon be full of comb but it will be wild comb and then need the trick with the sheet of material to move them into a hive with frames... So......Full of foundation and one lovely old well used comb. Why? Our old friend pheromones. That comb will reek of them and reassure the scouts that this is a bee friendly home which has in part at least (the comb) been used before.

I have had swarms move into five frame nucs and 24 frame Glens both on the ground. There is a lot said about so many litres and so many feet up but as I say on the ground seems to work fine.

PH

 

[Erichalfbee]

Back on thread (sort of): Is there any reason why you can’t use a complete hive filled with frames and undrawn wax as a bait hive - or do you stand more chance with an empty hive? Over to the collective wisdom of the Forum...

According to Tom Seeley scouts measure a cavity not only by walking in it and around it but they fly across it. So it might make sense to leave it emptyish. I put one drawn used brood comb, a frame with fishing line and a starter strip and a few waxed top bars in my bait hives never fail.
A box full of drawn used brood comb would likely be attractive but beware the moths. I don’t do that because I like swarms to draw me a whole new box once I move them.

 

[Poly Hive]

I said I present my baits as one full comb and the rest foundation and they very rarely fail.

At the risk of general condemnation, the research that gets quoted re the 40 litres and the height and so on was not conducted in the UK. We don't have the temperatures that may well drive common behaviours in other countries.

PH

 

[Erichalfbee]

It’s something we can all experiment with. Lots of different ways work.

 

[Murox]

It’s something we can all experiment with. Lots of different ways work.

Yes - finding a tree/natural feature to raise a bait hive on is a significant challenge where I am - so they go two or three feet off the ground - one old comb and empty frames seems to be good enough for my circumstances.

 

[pnkemp]

Doesn’t old comb risk the transfer of pathogens?

It came up in my beginner lectures on hive inspections Friday night and the Seasonal Bee Inspector who was doing a short talk on something else objected quite strongly when the use of old comb in a bait hive was mentioned.

As a beginner of course I don’t have access to old brood comb so not an issue if I try it this year.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Old brood comb from your own healthy bees is safe in my opinion. It’s worked out ASAP after being transferred anyway.
As for putting bait hives in trees, mine sit on the potting shed roof in the garden and on the field shelter roof across the field from the apiary.
I do have one box in a tree at the bottom of the garden but that’s for let-alone bees left to their own devices.

 

[Murox]

Doesn’t old comb risk the transfer of pathogens?

It came up in my beginner lectures on hive inspections Friday night and the Seasonal Bee Inspector who was doing a short talk on something else objected quite strongly when the use of old comb in a bait hive was mentioned.

As a beginner of course I don’t have access to old brood comb so not an issue if I try it this year.

Of course it does, as does buying in a nuc and so on. Rotation out of comb that is around three years old helps. Its always a trade off - but what pathogens was your seasonal inspector so concerned about ?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Painting the inside of a bait hive with propolis helps make the box attractive too

 

[Poly Hive]

Uh huh and how does one achieve that? (propolis painting that is)

I wondered when the disease issue would crop up.

PH

 

[pargyle]

Painting the inside of a bait hive with propolis helps make the box attractive too

From my past experience .. it's the previous bee smell that they find really attractive .. I've had swarms move into everything from an old timber super to an empty WBC without any lifts in it. Last year they found a way in to an empty Nuc box and a 14 x 12 full of drawn comb ...

Oddly enough and at the risk of raising yet more dissention and argument from those on here with closed minds and a fine tooth comb for trichological purposes ..

The swarms always seem to choose spots to settle on a line that runs directly from an old walnut tree in my neigbours front garden, down through my front garden and straight through my apiary. I've had swarms in the walnut tree, in the lilac bush in my front garden, on the garden wall, in the pyracantha hedge in front of the garden wall and they all line up. The boxes they have found have usually also been stored on that line. Coincidence ?

Well I've dowsed the area and there is a line exactly where the bees seem to prefer to locate ...

Roger Patterson is convinced that they find something attractive in particular spots and so am I ... He updated his page on the Dave Cushman website last November ..

http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/leylines.html