Attracting a swarm

[Beefriendly]

I think we can see from some of the replies that re-queening an aggressive colony is not the simple quick task that was alluded to earlier.
Finding the queen alone can be an issue with an aggressive colony, it can be damn difficult. Hence splitting them into three will at least narrow down where she is if you fail to find her.
I don't like to add new queens to these types of colonies as experience has shown the introduction rate (even with press in cages) is not good. These girls do not want new genetics, you need to force it upon them.

Depending on circumstances my favourite method is to remove the problem hive to a different location in the apiary and sit a docile queen right hive (moved from another apiary) where the original hive was. This hive should now pick up all the flying bees as they return to their original location. If you can't move a hive then as long as there is one adjacent or close by it will serve the same purpose. I've yet to see this fail or see the aggressive bees kill their "new" docile queen....that's not to say there won't be a first time
Few days later you can go back into the original vicious hive to find (usually) a much subdued docile hive with mainly nurse bees. There are now far fewer bees and the queen is consequently (usually) much easier to locate and dispatch. Then paper/aerosol amalgamate to hive next door.....or add frame of eggs from favourite hive/or as last resort add a new queen.... Job done. New queens can be purchased from a variety of sources and dealers, but check their posting dates to make sure it fits in with your schedule.
Often you will need to wait a few weeks for the "bad" bees to die out and all colonies to be nice and gentle......Sometimes the new queens pheromones will calm the "bad" bees within a few days, but not always as I can attest to from past experiences.

 

[bingevader]

I don’t think so and I’m sure Philip didn’t actually imply that.
I think you should read the whole thread
Jake has said that the swarms his boss collected are all nasty bees; not were nasty swarms but are nasty bees.

I read the whole thing prior to posting.
pargyle's response to your post was some what clearer on his thought on the matter.

Although I don't have any sympathy for 'people' deliberately disturbing or vandalising bees, I think a little thought on consequences wouldn't go amiss.

Although we all say its his own fault, would the courts look favorably on you if the 'chap' suddenly discovered he has a fatal allergy to being stung?

The fleeing person passes on the attacking bees to an innocent by-stander and they then take the consequences of the angry bees.

I believe everyone should try and ensure they do not allow their stock to cause harm to others. We put up with a few stings other people shouldn't have to.

Okay, deep breath.
The vandal was just that, nothing more, nothing less.
We have informative signage (no warnings, that would imply liability) at the entrance and around the apiary.
The bees are a sufficient distance from the entrance to allow for even the most persistent bee to have given up.
We've followed all the health and safety guidance to minimise any harm to others.
We keep bees, stings are inevitable.
Anyone who doesn't want to get stung needs to read the signs and stay away.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Depending on circumstances my favourite method is .........

Now that is a neat solution if you have other hives.

 

[Stiffy]

I think we can see from some of the replies that re-queening an aggressive colony is not the simple quick task that was alluded to earlier.
Finding the queen alone can be an issue with an aggressive colony, it can be damn difficult. Hence splitting them into three will at least narrow down where she is if you fail to find her.
I don't like to add new queens to these types of colonies as experience has shown the introduction rate (even with press in cages) is not good. These girls do not want new genetics, you need to force it upon them.

Depending on circumstances my favourite method is to remove the problem hive to a different location in the apiary and sit a docile queen right hive (moved from another apiary) where the original hive was. This hive should now pick up all the flying bees as they return to their original location. If you can't move a hive then as long as there is one adjacent or close by it will serve the same purpose. I've yet to see this fail or see the aggressive bees kill their "new" docile queen....that's not to say there won't be a first time
Few days later you can go back into the original vicious hive to find (usually) a much subdued docile hive with mainly nurse bees. There are now far fewer bees and the queen is consequently (usually) much easier to locate and dispatch. Then paper/aerosol amalgamate to hive next door.....or add frame of eggs from favourite hive/or as last resort add a new queen.... Job done. New queens can be purchased from a variety of sources and dealers, but check their posting dates to make sure it fits in with your schedule.
Often you will need to wait a few weeks for the "bad" bees to die out and all colonies to be nice and gentle......Sometimes the new queens pheromones will calm the "bad" bees within a few days, but not always as I can attest to from past experiences.

Spot on advice.
S

 

[Stiffy]

I read the whole thing prior to posting.
pargyle's response to your post was some what clearer on his thought on the matter.


Okay, deep breath.
The vandal was just that, nothing more, nothing less.
We have informative signage (no warnings, that would imply liability) at the entrance and around the apiary.
The bees are a sufficient distance from the entrance to allow for even the most persistent bee to have given up.
We've followed all the health and safety guidance to minimise any harm to others.
We keep bees, stings are inevitable.
Anyone who doesn't want to get stung needs to read the signs and stay away.

Don’t understand why you would require a ‘deep breath’ If you are happy, that’s fine.
I should say though truly aggressive bees I have dealt with seem to have a very good memory, time and distance hasn’t deterred them. I had some that would attack on sight the day after and followed over 500m and would have continued if I hadn’t jumped in my pick up.
They where also really difficult getting to accept a new queen, even after splitting four ways. Couldn’t be bothered now with other people’s swarms and I don’t go out of my way to attract any. If unknown swarms are caught they are dealt by re-queening, no matter where from.
S

 

[pargyle]

Now that is a neat solution if you have other hives.

Yes it is ... I think we are all agreed that the ideal solution in the first place is to divide and conquer ...variations on a theme depending on what kit/colonies you have access to.

As always in beekeeping there's always a variety of right solutions - all of which have the propensity to be the wrong solution on the day !

 

[Millet]

IMHO it is NOT easy to re-queen a vicious hive, there are all sorts of problems associated with it.
I'm very interested in hearing how you perform your "so easy to fix it's a no brainer" method as I'd love to use it.
Mine usually involve pain and several weeks




What is your time scale here? I can tell a vicious colony within seconds yet it takes me several weeks to get them re-queened to something calm as I usually need to wait for the aggressive bees to naturally die out. Occasionally the influence of a new queen has an immediate effect, more often than not it doesn't in my experience.

I have never successfully re queened a full angry hive yet..the only method that helped or helps for me is to split the hive (kill) the angry Queen and make nucs with new Queens.that are bought in ..how anyone thinks it is easy to requeen a angry colony is a joke to him self....

 

[Erichalfbee]

BF
What do you think of Roger Patterson’s idea of putting in a protected queen cell as in the last para?
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/aggcolreq.html

 

[Amari]

I have two colonies which I daren't open last year. Now I know what to do.

 

[pargyle]

I have never successfully re queened a full angry hive yet..the only method that helped or helps for me is to split the hive (kill) the angry Queen and make nucs with new Queens.that are bought in ..how anyone thinks it is easy to requeen a angry colony is a joke to him self....

If you read all the posts you will find that nobody suggested that it is easy to requeen a hive where the bees are seriously aggressive ... it's possible and frankly essential. The decision is the easy bit ...

But you know what angry bees are like ... as I recall from your early posts on here you had the bees from hell and had to re-queen with stock from your mate BF ?

 

[Beersmith]

Hi guys I'm new to beekeeping done taster course and have a 5 week theory and 5 week practical courses coming up.
We are keeping our hive at work on a golf course, the hive is all built minus wax in frames.
So we were thinking if we dont have enough money in the budget for bees then we could attract a swarm with swarm wipes.
Would this be a really bad idea for beginners as they could be nasty
Thanks

Is your training with an established bee keeping association? If so, then wait until you have been to a few sessions and have been able to talk to the trainers and other members. Some associations take a pride in helping newcomers get started.

Some of the more experienced members may have quite a few hives and have no wish to increase further but find they have splits and swarms from the previous season that they really do not need and will pass them on at modest price, perhaps just covering their costs.

Some of the association members will be involved in swarm retrieval in the area. In some seasons they will have more swarms than they need and will welcome the opportunity to pass them on to a newcomer.

Many associations link newcomers to a mentor who will also provide guidance on obtaining your first bees. Now why should someone give up time and effort helping a beginner and total stranger? Difficult to say, but they do and there seems to be a huge amount of good will and support for keen newcomers.

My own association has a proud track record that for many seasons now every newcomer that completed the full basic theoretical and practical training, had the necessary equipment and wanted to get started - by one way or another - was set up with their own bees before the end of the season.

Do not get totally committed to just one possibility. Wait and see. You could be pleasantly surprised.

 

[Beefriendly]

If you read all the posts you will find that nobody suggested that it is easy to requeen a hive where the bees are seriously aggressive

.. it's a problem so easy to fix that it's a no brainer.

It was your glib comment that it was so easy to fix that caused me to join in and explain that it isn't that easy to fix. It's a tricky job at the best of times.

 

[Beefriendly]

BF
What do you think of Roger Patterson’s idea of putting in a protected queen cell as in the last para?
http://www.dave-cushman.net/bee/aggcolreq.html

I've never tried it so no don't know. I suspect it might be more of Rogers wishful thinking than proven technique. There has been a lot of that creeping in to what used to be a purely factual site.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I've never tried it so no don't know. I suspect it might be more of Rogers wishful thinking than proven technique. There has been a lot of that creeping in to what used to be a purely factual site.

Yes I agree. A pity really.

 

[Poly Hive]

You can always cross reference against my site as what I have said is made very clear.

PH

 

[Newbeeneil]

I've never tried it so no don't know. I suspect it might be more of Rogers wishful thinking than proven technique. There has been a lot of that creeping in to what used to be a purely factual site.

Roger never suggested it was a proven technique, maybe something some of us need to try to see if it's wishful thinking?

 

[pargyle]

It was your glib comment that it was so easy to fix that caused me to join in and explain that it isn't that easy to fix. It's a tricky job at the best of times.

I still think you are over-egging the difficulty. It's a faff, it takes time, it's not always successful, it's not a job for a beginner on their own but anyone who has worked with bees for a few years will need to have the ability to re-queen a colony.

Just because they are aggressive makes it a more unpleasant task (Nobody likes being covered in bees trying to kill you) but if you suit up properly, make sure you are bombproof, have a plan and enough kit ready to do what you need to do, smoker, water sprayer, inspection cloth on hand - it's really not that difficult. Doing it on a fine warm day when they are flying well and they have more important things on their mind also helps.

The fact is that aggreesive bees are an easy thing to fix .. you just have to requeen the colony.

There's plenty of threads on here with people suggesting the only solution is a cupful of petrol and they usually get a good kicking from those who know this is totally unnecessary.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yep. Finding the queen in this hive was “interesting”
Thick jeans. Shirt and a fleece under the suit. Leather gloves with nitriles on top. ( these came with my first “bee kit” and I always knew they might come in useful). Sleeves closed with rubber bands. Inspection cloth.
We found her on the hive wall.
I was videoing Stan doing it ( I was nowhere near brave enough whereas he just got on with it) and strangely no bees bothered me.

 

[pargyle]

Yep. Finding the queen in this hive was “interesting”
Thick jeans. Shirt and a fleece under the suit. Leather gloves with nitriles on top. ( these came with my first “bee kit” and I always knew they might come in useful). Sleeves closed with rubber bands. Inspection cloth.
We found her on the hive wall.
I was videoing Stan doing it ( I was nowhere near brave enough whereas he just got on with it) and strangely no bees bothered me.

Yes that's the way. I use duct tape round the wrists and boot tops so it's even safer. I have a lightweight boiler suit that will fit under my bee suit and they never get through two layers of material.

I wish I'd had photos of the hive from hell I had to deal with.. apparently I was black with the bees covering my suit .. I could barely see through the veil. The person I was helping (well .. she actually wouldn't come near so I was in the front line on my own !) could not believe what was going on. Fortunately, the queen was marked and there were so many bees in the air trying to kill me that she was relatively easy to spot.

 

[drex]

In my early days I had two colonies from hell, both of the same lineage. I got advice from mentor. The one in the national hive, I did manage to find the queen, but found it all rather daunting. She was culled and replaced and all settled down. The second colony was in a Warre with some awkward comb. My mentor advised petrol, which I was not very happy with, but I did. Looking back on it he was right. Not resorted to such measures since, but I believe it can still be the right call, in the right situation