Attracting a swarm

[bingevader]

No real beekeeper would tolerate keeping them for any longer than it took to find and install a new queen with better genes.

Oh dear, the gross generalisations again!

But then I for one, have never professed to being a "real beekeeper", I'm not even sure I know what one is really!

It's all degrees of nastiness I suppose!

Whilst they're usually little darlings in the air, we have had rather tetchy swarms when we've rehoused them that have settled very nicely.

It would be an expensive business if you re-queened every time a bee said boo!

We've had other "nasty" hives that have settled too.

One had been kicked over, it was an otherwise good colony. Would have been a shame to re-queen. In that particular instance, to want to breed out the fight response would seem a little strange! The chap who did it could be seen on the CCTV running away in a cloud of bees, flailing madly!

 

[Beefriendly]

Yes....I know one or two keepers who deliberately keep a few "attack on sight hives" near the entrance to their apiaries to dissuade visitors and possible thieves. They are always keen to pick up[ any of the swarms of local bees I collect in my area.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Oh dear, the gross generalisations again!

I don’t think so and I’m sure Philip didn’t actually imply that.
I think you should read the whole thread
Jake has said that the swarms his boss collected are all nasty bees; not were nasty swarms but are nasty bees.
It’s a hobby for many and should be pleasurable quite apart from the spread of defensive genes.
There have been many threads here over the years of folk competing for the worst bees on earth and I myself have joined in to my chagrin.
It doesn’t take long to evaluate the temper of a colony and it should take less time to do something about it.

 

[pargyle]

I don’t think so and I’m sure Philip didn’t actually imply that.
I think you should read the whole thread
Jake has said that the swarms his boss collected are all nasty bees; not were nasty swarms but are nasty bees.
It’s a hobby for many and should be pleasurable quite apart from the spread of defensive genes.
There have been many threads here over the years of folk competing for the worst bees on earth and I myself have joined in to my chagrin.
It doesn’t take long to evaluate the temper of a colony and it should take less time to do something about it.

Precisely, most of my bees have come from swarms ... and they have mostly turned into productive and easy to handle colonies. But .. I've also had experience of the hive from hell (It was actually a colony that a new beekeeper bought off the internet !) they were truly defensive to the point where you could not go within 50 feet without getting stung for no reason and which followed to the point where it was almost impossible to escape. I don't feel I'm a particularly good beekeeper - even to the point I don't really consider myself a 'real' beekeeper. However, I'd go further and suggest that NO beekeeper should tolerate bees that are permanently and truly aggressive - viz: Nasty .. it's a problem so easy to fix that it's a no brainer.

 

[Stiffy]

Oh dear, the gross generalisations again!

One had been kicked over, it was an otherwise good colony. Would have been a shame to re-queen. In that particular instance, to want to breed out the fight response would seem a little strange! The chap who did it could be seen on the CCTV running away in a cloud of bees, flailing madly!

Although I don't have any sympathy for 'people' deliberately disturbing or vandalising bees, I think a little thought on consequences wouldn't go amiss.

Although we all say its his own fault, would the courts look favorably on you if the 'chap' suddenly discovered he has a fatal allergy to being stung?

The fleeing person passes on the attacking bees to an innocent by-stander and they then take the consequences of the angry bees.

I believe everyone should try and ensure they do not allow their stock to cause harm to others. We put up with a few stings other people shouldn't have to.

I also find it odd people complain about queen bee prices.
The cost of a good queen is very small when you consider the other costs involved in keeping bees
S

 

[Poly Hive]

Yes, the worst bees I have had the misfortune to have were from the web, so called Amm... aye right.

Can't remember having a nasty swarm but as no doubt said already there are issues with swarms apart from temperament.

PH

 

[SDM]

Although I don't have any sympathy for 'people' deliberately disturbing or vandalising bees, I think a little thought on consequences wouldn't go amiss.

Although we all say its his own fault, would the courts look favorably on you if the 'chap' suddenly discovered he has a fatal allergy to being stung?

The fleeing person passes on the attacking bees to an innocent by-stander and they then take the consequences of the angry bees.

I believe everyone should try and ensure they do not allow their stock to cause harm to others. We put up with a few stings other people shouldn't have to.

I also find it odd people complain about queen bee prices.
The cost of a good queen is very small when you consider the other costs involved in keeping bees
S

How does the saying go ?
Good queens don't cost, they pay.

I've used the "attack hive" deterrent at a site where hives were being tampered with. When i returned the next time the roof was off the defensive hive and nobody has returned since.
I did worry about potential consequences, so I discussed it with a judge. He was content that should a fatality occur in such a case, the "but for" clause would be considered completely reasonable.
ie. The defence would claim "but for him engaging in criminal damage/theft etc. He would not have been stung and died from the reaction"
He went further than that but the jist was that prosecution under virtually any circumstances was very unlikely.

 

[Beefriendly]

. it's a problem so easy to fix that it's a no brainer.

IMHO it is NOT easy to re-queen a vicious hive, there are all sorts of problems associated with it.
I'm very interested in hearing how you perform your "so easy to fix it's a no brainer" method as I'd love to use it.
Mine usually involve pain and several weeks

It doesn’t take long to evaluate the temper of a colony and it should take less time to do something about it.

What is your time scale here? I can tell a vicious colony within seconds yet it takes me several weeks to get them re-queened to something calm as I usually need to wait for the aggressive bees to naturally die out. Occasionally the influence of a new queen has an immediate effect, more often than not it doesn't in my experience.

 

[Ian123]

For many nasty bees is a matter of experience or lack of when I started out it was with a couple of bog standard surrey mongrels 1 ok and 1 pretty hot. The old boy I started helping up the road had 12 hives of French amm that I still remember painfully to this day another couple in a neighbouring village ran about 40 hives mainly f1 NZ Italians it did not take long to realise what made for easier beekeeping. The simple fact is unless you get yourself out and about and see others bees and try a few different strains/types few will have any clue what’s available. Most just don’t appreciate or realise the amount of work that many breeders do and the huge difference bees from good sources can make.

 

[Ian123]

IMHO it is NOT easy to re-queen a vicious hive, there are all sorts of problems associated with it.
I'm very interested in hearing how you perform your "so easy to fix it's a no brainer" method as I'd love to use it.
Mine usually involve pain and several weeks




What is your time scale here? I can tell a vicious colony within seconds yet it takes me several weeks to get them re-queened to something calm as I usually need to wait for the aggressive bees to naturally die out. Occasionally the influence of a new queen has an immediate effect, more often than not it doesn't in my experience.

Not sure you can say time scale small nucs or swarms can be ok to handle, as they develop into a full size then you get the full picture!!

 

[Erichalfbee]

IMHO it is NOT easy to re-queen a vicious hive, there are all sorts of problems associated with it.
I'm very interested in hearing how you perform your "so easy to fix it's a no brainer" method as I'd love to use it.
Mine usually involve pain and several weeks




What is your time scale here? I can tell a vicious colony within seconds yet it takes me several weeks to get them re-queened to something calm as I usually need to wait for the aggressive bees to naturally die out. Occasionally the influence of a new queen has an immediate effect, more often than not it doesn't in my experience.

No set in stone time scale for me but i have found that as a colony grows if they are bad tempered they get worse. After my one colony that were very evil I try to step in fairly quickly. You are quite right that horrid colonies are not easy to re queen but the decision to do so is an easy one. Much better to split into three and introduce new queens in a push in cage.

 

[Stiffy]

How does the saying go ?
Good queens don't cost, they pay.

I've used the "attack hive" deterrent at a site where hives were being tampered with. When i returned the next time the roof was off the defensive hive and nobody has returned since.
I did worry about potential consequences, so I discussed it with a judge. He was content that should a fatality occur in such a case, the "but for" clause would be considered completely reasonable.
ie. The defence would claim "but for him engaging in criminal damage/theft etc. He would not have been stung and died from the reaction"
He went further than that but the jist was that prosecution under virtually any circumstances was very unlikely.

Probably wise words from the judge, but I know of two fatalities to thieves cutting live copper cables and on each occasion the relatives took the owners to court. I don’t recall the outcome but really wouldn’t to put myself in that sort of scenario
S

 

[Poly Hive]

My experience of nasty colonies is when requeened the temper changes virtually instantly.


PH

 

[thorn]

Probably wise words from the judge, but I know of two fatalities to thieves cutting live copper cables and on each occasion the relatives took the owners to court. I don’t recall the outcome but really wouldn’t to put myself in that sort of scenario
S

The relatives wouldn't succeed. And as there's no legal aid for such claims, they'd not find a solicitor to take the case on.
I suspect that in the cases you cite, a solicitor made initial noises to get free publicity in the local press, before telling the relatives that after investigation he was sorry to advise that there was little or no chance of success.

 

[thorn]

Although I don't have any sympathy for 'people' deliberately disturbing or vandalising bees, I think a little thought on consequences wouldn't go amiss.

Although we all say its his own fault, would the courts look favorably on you if the 'chap' suddenly discovered he has a fatal allergy to being stung?

The fleeing person passes on the attacking bees to an innocent by-stander and they then take the consequences of the angry bees.

Unlikely to be liability in either case. Bees will be bees.

 

[Beefriendly]

My experience of nasty colonies is when requeened the temper changes virtually instantly.

I can assure you in my area it is only a minority of the local bees that change their behaviour virtually instantly with a new queen. With the vast majority you end up waiting for the old aggressive bees to die out.....and that's assuming they will accept their new queen...which is not a given. In my area this may simply reflect that my local bees are genetically programmed to attack attack attack..
I quite like Dani's idea of dividing them into three and go for the numbers game. But it's not the easiest of problems to fix, particularly for a beginner.

 

[pargyle]

You are quite right that horrid colonies are not easy to re queen but the decision to do so is an easy one. Much better to split into three and introduce new queens in a push in cage.

Yes .. find the queen and kill her. Split the colony, remove one with all of the open brood well away so that you get most of the flying bees back to the original site without the ability to make queen cells - reducing the numbers of bees in the colonies tends to make them less aggressive. You can requeen this colony although I would do it with a queen introduction cage to avoid them killing the new queen.

Keep knocking down the queen cells that get built in the hive you have moved away - give them some frames of foundation to play with and feed them and then once they are hopelessly queenless either re-queen the colony with another good queen so you have two docile colonies or do a paper combine with the other hive once the new queen has been released and has started to lay.

Ok .. it's a bit of a faff, yes, initially you are dealing with feisty bees but at least the situation will improve (and I agree with PH - you do see a marked improvement as soon as the new queen is established) and as I said, the decision is a no-brainer. You can't live with bees that are continually making your life a misery and putting Joe Public at risk.

Dani's idea for a three way split will probably work even better ...

 

[Newbeeneil]

I was given a hive last year that was "too hot to handle" by a fellow bee keeper on here. The queen was a very prolific yellow Italian but her offspring were from hell.
I calmed them down by splitting them and requeening each half, it took awhile but ended up with 2 nice colonies (one is looking a bit weak at the mo and I don't fancy its chances)
As far has swarms go I have been on the swarm collectors list for two seasons now and have collected, caught in bait hives or removed from buildings over 40. I think only one has been "nasty" a couple have been "lively" but generally they are extremely well behaved. Maybe I've been lucky or maybe my "nastiness scale" has a different origin than others!

 

[pargyle]

I quite like Dani's idea of dividing them into three and go for the numbers game. But it's not the easiest of problems to fix, particularly for a beginner.

I think re-queening an agressive colony is not something I would recommend a beginner do on their own .. they would need help - but, if you go back to the earliest posts the suggestion was that there was an experienced beekeeper involved with these nasty bees so your nitpicking is a little mis-directed.

As I said earlier . A REAL beekeeper would not tolerate nasty bees for any longer than it took to put a new queen in place with better attributes. (OWTTE)

 

[madasafish]

I think re-queening an agressive colony is not something I would recommend a beginner do on their own .. they would need help - but, if you go back to the earliest posts the suggestion was that there was an experienced beekeeper involved with these nasty bees so your nitpicking is a little mis-directed.

As I said earlier . A REAL beekeeper would not tolerate nasty bees for any longer than it took to put a new queen in place with better attributes. (OWTTE)

Then some of the beekeepers I know are not real.