Asian Hornet APP

[Karol]

Sorry but the NBU strategy makes no sense. It is illogical, and risks being overwhelmed by weight of numbers.
We are fighting a war of invasion by Asian Hornets. When fighting wars, you strike your opponents when they are weak and most vulnerable. You hit them with overwhelming force before they establish and bring in reinforcements. You make sure any bridgehead they make is wiped out asap.

What's illogical is your analogy to human warfare which bares no resemblance to managing velutina incursions.

The NBU strategy is to ignore them

No it is not. It is to monitor and respond accordingly.

until they have established a nest

The NBU respond to credible sightings whether or not there's a nest.

(a bridgehead) and have brought in reinforcements (young hornets) or even hide away in a nest in some outlying place. And then to try to wipe them out when they are dug into a nest possibly 15Meters in the air requiring a cherry picker to gain access.
Or hidden half way up some vertical cliff face accessible only with ropes.

If your fears were true, we would have seen reports of velutina queens seeking refuge for hibernation. I don't recall any sightings of a single velutina queen by anyone in October/November. There simply isn't any evidence that velutina has anything like a bridgehead in the UK.

Now last year some areas in France had 5,000 Asian hornet nests. That is areas not total France. It is physically impossible to destroy 50 hornets nests a week with current resources. We could be talking that kind of level of invasion all forming nests with hundreds of hornets per nest within a couple of months,

Chicken little tosh! You have no concept of velutina biology if you believe there'll be 5000 velutina nests in the UK by March. They won't even start to build their nests until the end of March at the earliest.

Spring trapping will catch some of these queens with minimal efforts. And minimal by catch when compared to the annual insect catch of one hornet nest.

What do you think the bycatch in spring is? Bycatch in spring is the mated gynes of indigenous vespines. Each vespine queen that you kill in spring will reduce the native vespine population by 5,000 to 20,000 wasps each of which are enemies of velutina.

"Let's save the by catch " is the motto. The resulting consumption by a nest which lasts say 3 months could be 3-5kg of insects.. far in excess of any sensibly manged trap.

So to put it in terms of your 'military' analogy, you are purposefully looking to destroy your most important allies in the fight against velutina. If beekeepers around the UK were to follow your miss guided advice on spring trapping it would denude the UK of billions of wasps at the height of the season all of which are natural enemies of velutina.

The policy appears to fly in the face of logic. Certainly of military logic: strike your enemy at their most vulnerable.

I hope the NBU repent. The videos by Andrew Durham certainly support the above.

I suggest you stick to being a foot soldier and follow what the NBU recommend. Leave military strategy to those who better understand your enemy and the means with which to fight it.

 

[fian]

What's illogical is your analogy to human warfare which bares no resemblance to managing velutina incursions.

No it is not. It is to monitor and respond accordingly.


The NBU respond to credible sightings whether or not there's a nest.


If your fears were true, we would have seen reports of velutina queens seeking refuge for hibernation. I don't recall any sightings of a single velutina queen by anyone in October/November. There simply isn't any evidence that velutina has anything like a bridgehead in the UK.

Chicken little tosh! You have no concept of velutina biology if you believe there'll be 5000 velutina nests in the UK by March. They won't even start to build their nests until the end of March at the earliest.

What do you think the bycatch in spring is? Bycatch in spring is the mated gynes of indigenous vespines. Each vespine queen that you kill in spring will reduce the native vespine population by 5,000 to 20,000 wasps each of which are enemies of velutina.

So to put it in terms of your 'military' analogy, you are purposefully looking to destroy your most important allies in the fight against velutina. If beekeepers around the UK were to follow your miss guided advice on spring trapping it would denude the UK of billions of wasps at the height of the season all of which are natural enemies of velutina.

I suggest you stick to being a foot soldier and follow what the NBU recommend. Leave military strategy to those who better understand your enemy and the means with which to fight it.

The reality is that any vespina is both an enemy and a food compared to the velutina and that is why the decisions are more complex.
By the way, since the other day you asked for my answer about the capture in spring, I still don't know your position on my answer.
If it is true that there have been no sightings in October and November, how is it possible that the NBU continued removing nests on those dates according to what was published on its website, from September 29 to November 17, 12 nests were destroyed in 7 locations .
When the NBU publishes reports based on analysis, with details of the proportions of individuals by caste and their different sizes, we can begin to stop questioning his authority as a commander.
It is curious how, starting in August, the NBU has chosen to omit information that it had been providing and that was relevant for trust purposes. They are "primary" or "secondary" after nest. I don't know if there is anyone from the NBU on this forum who can clarify the reason but I suspect overflow and perhaps intentionality.

 

[Karol]

The reality is that any vespina is both an enemy and a food compared to the velutina and that is why the decisions are more complex.

No they are not. Vespines are not easy prey for velutina. Velutina queens will not risk attacking vespines in spring unless threatened themselves for fear of them losing the exchange because if they die so does their species. It's only later that worker velutina will hunt vespines but their preference remains easier prey such as other insects and honeybees.

By the way, since the other day you asked for my answer about the capture in spring, I still don't know your position on my answer.
If it is true that there have been no sightings in October and November,

Of mated velutina queens seeking refuge to hibernate. Do try to keep up.

how is it possible that the NBU continued removing nests on those dates according to what was published on its website, from September 29 to November 17, 12 nests were destroyed in 7 locations .
When the NBU publishes reports based on analysis, with details of the proportions of individuals by caste and their different sizes, we can begin to stop questioning his authority as a commander.

They already have. You clearly didn't register JBM's post about the NBU's post mortem reports that none of the destroyed nests have ever produced sexuals. What is outstanding report wise, as far as I understand it, is the DNA analysis to see if any of the nests in 2023 came from overwintering queens.

It is curious how, starting in August, the NBU has chosen to omit information that it had been providing and that was relevant for trust purposes. They are "primary" or "secondary" after nest. I don't know if there is anyone from the NBU on this forum who can clarify the reason but I suspect overflow and perhaps intentionality.

Or perhaps after August it was assumed all the nests would be secondaries. Still doesn't change the fact that none of the nests had any evidence of queen cells. Again, if I have got that wrong I am happy to stand corrected.

 

[Bettenham]

I’m going to wait till I see any and for what the NBU recommends. I think you and me, Emyr are safe for a while in Wales
I might put a wick monitoring trap out. Maybe.

What is a wick monitoring trap please? Is it a commercial product or are they home made? Being in Kent I'm thinking I should be doing something this year and at the moment this seems to be the recommended approach?

 

[Erichalfbee]

What is a wick monitoring trap please? Is it a commercial product or are they home made? Being in Kent I'm thinking I should be doing something this year and at the moment this seems to be the recommended approach?

https://www.swhbk.org.uk/asian-hornet-traps-and-lures/
You can put the whole thing under cover to keep the rain off.

 

[JohnRB]

So what did they do in France when AH appeared? Trap or monitor or nothing? Whatever approach they took clearly failed to stop AH getting established. Should be some good lessons to prevent us ending up in the same boat. Everything I read seems to be about what they are doing now

 

[fian]

Well, I don't understand this concealment of the JBC report and the method of counting the nests, since it is evident that the NBU at least needs another manager for its website.

 

[fian]

So what did they do in France when AH appeared? Trap or monitor or nothing? Whatever approach they took clearly failed to stop AH getting established. Should be some good lessons to prevent us ending up in the same boat. Everything I read seems to be about what they are doing now

https://www.campogalego.es/como-luchan-en-francia-contra-la-vespa-velutina/I make a summary:
A. The capacity for adaptation was underestimated (high winter mortality, trapping in apiaries due to underestimating the capacity for predation).
B. Absence of predators.
C. High reproductive capacity.
D. Authorities dedicated to other duties.
What are you doing now:
A. Spring trapping
B. Promote the use of SO2 as a method to eliminate nests.
C. Trying to locate the primary nests, it seems that there is a preference for urban areas.
D. Research on pheromones that allow optimal trapping in autumn

 

[The Poot]

Well, I don't understand this concealment of the JBC report and the method of counting the nests, since it is evident that the NBU at least needs another manager for its website.

Yep, the NBU website has a page of illustrations of traps for catching AH. They are all kill traps.
In the past I have used the Waspbane traps in the apiary, as recommended by Karol. They are indiscriminate kill traps that I stopped using because of the number of European Hornets killed. There is little thought for by catch with them.
As I see it the Gard Apis traps are not kill traps and by catch can either escape through the mesh, or be allowed out by the operator.
The NBU expect SBIs to investigate areas where sightings of hornets are reported. If there is no hard evidence, they are to survey the area, looking for insects on the wing ….and then catch one for analysis. Great idea, when they can be caught and remain alive in the Gard Apis trap for collection!
I recently received an email of our area‘s Beecraft magazine- reports from all five BKIs in Dorset.
Below are snippets showing how they are gearing up to monitor for the hornet - I’m assuming from advice from the NBU…

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

So what did they do in France when AH appeared? Trap or monitor or nothing?

nothing - that's why they became so well established there

 

[Karol]

Yep, the NBU website has a page of illustrations of traps for catching AH. They are all kill traps.
In the past I have used the Waspbane traps in the apiary, as recommended by Karol.

I think you'll find it hard to find a single post on the forum where I have ever made such a recommendation. You are also being disingenuous by conflating integrated wasp management of nuisance sweet feeding wasps with managing velutina. They are two completely distinct problems and two completely distinct disciplines. One deals with managing indigenous wasps in an ecologically sensitive way by only targetting workers when they come to the end of their life cycle (and therefore has no affect on species survival) and the other is about total eradication. Never have I advocated (or indeed supplied) wasp traps for spring trapping to protect hives and never have I advocated or supplied traps for catching velutina. WaspBane is not and has never been designed to catch velutina.

They are indiscriminate kill traps that I stopped using because of the number of European Hornets killed. There is little thought for by catch with them.

You slate a product designed specifically for public protection which was then adopted by beekeepers to protect hives. Being a responsible manufacturer we undertook several years of research to mitigate risks associated with the use of the product in an unintended market resulting in the integrated wasp management advice that we provide for beekeepers. Crabro is an unfortunate bycatch but we make no apology for the number of lives we have helped save or the number of people we have protected from serious complications of wasp stings in public places or industrial confectionery facilities and the like.

As I see it the Gard Apis traps are not kill traps and by catch can either escape through the mesh, or be allowed out by the operator.
The NBU expect SBIs to investigate areas where sightings of hornets are reported. If there is no hard evidence, they are to survey the area, looking for insects on the wing ….and then catch one for analysis. Great idea, when they can be caught and remain alive in the Gard Apis trap for collection!
I recently received an email of our area‘s Beecraft magazine- reports from all five BKIs in Dorset.
Below are snippets showing how they are gearing up to monitor for the hornet - I’m assuming from advice from the NBU…
View attachment 38686View attachment 38687View attachment 38688

Where is the evidence that Gard Apis doesn't retain vespine queens which approach the size of velutina workers so won't easily escape the trap but are smaller than velutina queens so will enter the trap irrespective of which nozzles are fitted? Their own literature confirms that the trap does have bycatch. Gard Apis may well be an asset in areas already overrun with velutina but that is not the UK. The over arching concern is that spring trapping will kill indigenous vespine queens creating space for velutina to become established. Use bait stations instead like those recommended by Erichalfbee to monitor for velutina. No harm done to indigenous species. If velutina is present then change your approach. There is no down side to taking a judicious approach. I fear that by following the course of action you espouse you will reap exactly what you are trying to avoid - an established velutina infestation.

 

[The Poot]

I think you'll find it hard to find a single post on the forum where I have ever made such a recommendation. You are also being disingenuous by conflating integrated wasp management of nuisance sweet feeding wasps with managing velutina. They are two completely distinct problems and two completely distinct disciplines. One deals with managing indigenous wasps in an ecologically sensitive way by only targetting workers when they come to the end of their life cycle (and therefore has no affect on species survival) and the other is about total eradication. Never have I advocated (or indeed supplied) wasp traps for spring trapping to protect hives and never have I advocated or supplied traps for catching velutina. WaspBane is not and has never been designed to catch velutina.

You slate a product designed specifically for public protection which was then adopted by beekeepers to protect hives. Being a responsible manufacturer we undertook several years of research to mitigate risks associated with the use of the product in an unintended market resulting in the integrated wasp management advice that we provide for beekeepers. Crabro is an unfortunate bycatch but we make no apology for the number of lives we have helped save or the number of people we have protected from serious complications of wasp stings in public places or industrial confectionery facilities and the like.

Where is the evidence that Gard Apis doesn't retain vespine queens which approach the size of velutina workers so won't easily escape the trap but are smaller than velutina queens so will enter the trap irrespective of which nozzles are fitted? Their own literature confirms that the trap does have bycatch. Gard Apis may well be an asset in areas already overrun with velutina but that is not the UK. The over arching concern is that spring trapping will kill indigenous vespine queens creating space for velutina to become established. Use bait stations instead like those recommended by Erichalfbee to monitor for velutina. No harm done to indigenous species. If velutina is present then change your approach. There is no down side to taking a judicious approach. I fear that by following the course of action you espouse you will reap exactly what you are trying to avoid - an established velutina infestation.

You have recommended using “high efficiency“ wasp traps, rather than home made low efficiency ones. I assumed from your posts that the Waspbane trap was “high efficiency“ and I’ve used it, as you say, for the end of cycle sweet feeding stage. If I’ve misunderstood your previous posts, I apologise.
I‘m sorry that Crabro is, as a result of sweet stage wasp trapping, to you, an acceptable, but unfortunate by catch. I was merely saying it isn’t to me.
The evidence for Gard Apis remains to be seen. My point is that should it catch queen wasps, or anything else, the by catch can be released - as long as the traps are regularly monitored.
I consider that should be a real advantage for the NBU /SBI to positively identify and then send for analysis any velutina caught in the traps, rather than search around the area where one was (rightly or wrongly) sighted. It‘s all about good sense and efficiency.

 

[fian]

You have recommended using “high efficiency“ wasp traps, rather than home made low efficiency ones. I assumed from your posts that the Waspbane trap was “high efficiency“ and I’ve used it, as you say, for the end of cycle sweet feeding stage. If I’ve misunderstood your previous posts, I apologise.
I‘m sorry that Crabro is, as a result of sweet stage wasp trapping, to you, an acceptable, but unfortunate by catch. I was merely saying it isn’t to me.
The evidence for Gard Apis remains to be seen. My point is that should it catch queen wasps, or anything else, the by catch can be released - as long as the traps are regularly monitored.
I consider that should be a real advantage for the NBU /SBI to positively identify and then send for analysis any velutina caught in the traps, rather than search around the area where one was (rightly or wrongly) sighted. It‘s all about good sense and efficiency.

In fact and influencing this point.
If you get three captures in a nearby area that you know come from the same nest (DNA analysis) then you can triangulate their position without the need for a location system.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you get three captures in a nearby area that you know come from the same nest (DNA analysis)

as DNA analysis (even an urgent one) takes weeks if not months then your 'solution' is pretty pointless

 

[OldFarm]

But not in selective traps such as the Jadeprobe

Even the jabeprode have bycatch

 

[OldFarm]

What is a wick monitoring trap please? Is it a commercial product or are they home made? Being in Kent I'm thinking I should be doing something this year and at the moment this seems to be the recommended approach?

It's either a monitor or a trap, it can't be both. A wick monitor is just a jar (or similar) with attractant in it, make a hole in the lid and stick some fabric through that sits in the attractant, allowing it to be slowly made available. The attractant lasts longer, it doesn't get diluted by rain and there is no risk of insects drowning.

Once asian hornets have found a good food source (the attractant) they will keep returning to it.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Now from 24 to 72 hours and the could is for 4 hours and even if it takes 5 days it would not be excessive in the case of captures dated before September 1.

if you can get a saliva sample from a yellow legged hornet, can you post a video

 

[Karol]

You have recommended using “high efficiency“ wasp traps, rather than home made low efficiency ones. I assumed from your posts that the Waspbane trap was “high efficiency“ and I’ve used it, as you say, for the end of cycle sweet feeding stage. If I’ve misunderstood your previous posts, I apologise.

Efficiency of traps is integral to the successful protection of hives. The advice given was generic simply aimed at helping beekeepers understand the dangers of low efficiency traps which tend to be ones that are home made. It's a conversation for a different thread and adds nothing to this thread.

I‘m sorry that Crabro is, as a result of sweet stage wasp trapping, to you, an acceptable, but unfortunate by catch. I was merely saying it isn’t to me.

It's a simple choice. Save a child's life (or anyone's life for that matter) or kill the odd Crabro. Not a difficult choice for me and an acceptable collateral bycatch given that these are worker Crabro and not queens so not destructive to the species.

The evidence for Gard Apis remains to be seen. My point is that should it catch queen wasps, or anything else, the by catch can be released - as long as the traps are regularly monitored.
I consider that should be a real advantage for the NBU /SBI to positively identify and then send for analysis any velutina caught in the traps, rather than search around the area where one was (rightly or wrongly) sighted. It‘s all about good sense and efficiency.

There is absolutely no need to monitor using traps. Bait stations are equally as effective for monitoring without any of the downside because velutina as is true of all vespines programme feed which means that once they have found a food source they will continue to return to it. Far easier then to either track and trace especially if velutina recruit more colleagues to the bait station or swap in a trap to catch and kill the velutina if the NBU can't get there in good time.

 

[fian]

Maybe it's easier than putting a tracker on his chest.

if you can get a saliva sample from a yellow legged hornet, can you post a video

 

[elainemary]

Before you can launch such an atttack you need to do recon and make sure your intelligence is correct on the enemy's movements. Otherwise you risk using your resources in the wrong way which can weaken your position for future fighting. You also don't launch such a strike until the opportune time and you follow the chain of command.

The NBU is saying wait for the intel and orders. So we wait.

Totally agree. Also
It’s DEFRA that decides the policy and strategy whilst the NBU then carries this out with the resources they are given