AFB again

[mazzamazda]

A very good reason why beekeepers shouldn't feed honey back to bees!

In the UK, the solution is a burn pit.

I think if you know where the honey has come from and you havent stressed the colony I dont think feeding back is much of a problem, same as sugar really, open feeding can be.

I do think the burn pit is a little prehistoric, not that I'm trying to argue with the professionals, I might well retract my statement in a few months time. I have up to now successfully moved hives from infected sites on over 25 occasions when AFB has been found and managed to stay disease free, against UK advise so it isnt all right.

 

[Hivemaker.]

The reason I mentioned a kit for Beeks was simply to ask if it would be useful for a test BEFORE you call an inspector, that way maybe less time spent on false call outs? anyway I have hijacked the thread, sorry about that. i will start a fresh one

What would your test kits be able to tell us that the test kits that are already available don't tell us, the readily available lateral flow devices test positive or negative, what more do you think we should need to know before calling the bee inspector in the case of a positive test?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I do think the burn pit is a little prehistoric, ....... I have up to now successfully moved hives from infected sites on over 25 occasions when AFB has been found and managed to stay disease free,

Not really disease free are you - it seems you have one crop up every couple of months. Maybe it's time to grasp the nettle and not be so selective as to whose advice you listen to?

 

[BeeJayBee]

The reason I mentioned a kit for Beeks was simply to ask if it would be useful for a test BEFORE you call an inspector, that way maybe less time spent on false call outs?

LFDs for EFB can be bought cheaply enough from Paynes, they have a fairly good shelf life. http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/supplements-others/efb-kit/

If you could produce a kit that's at least as accurate and of a similar price then some beekeepers might be interested in buying them, but initial marketing might be a problem and you might need endorsement from the inspectorate to encourage take-up.

 

[Finman]

LFDs for EFB can be bought cheaply enough from Paynes, they have a fairly good shelf life. http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/supplements-others/efb-kit/

If you could produce a kit that's at least as accurate and of a similar price then some beekeepers might be interested in buying them, but initial marketing might be a problem and you might need endorsement from the inspectorate to encourage take-up.

Like this, change the genepool of your apiary, and get EFB resistat bees.
EFB is very easy disease. No test needed. You see it with eyes.

 

[Finman]

Not really disease free are you - it seems you have one crop up every couple of months. Maybe it's time to grasp the nettle and not be so selective as to whose advice you listen to?

In Spain AFB situation is what it is . If you go with UK advices, soon you do not have any colony. You have only ash pits. You may grow tomatoes in them. Backround is so contaminated.

Scandinavia and Germany has different style. USA has its antibiot style, and so on.

Which combinations of treatment works in Spain, when you know the tools, it is up to you then.
.

 

[Goran]

As here we learned AFB doesn't smell, EFB smell.. So far had no chance to confirm.
As first step to get rid of AFB is to stop to use antibiotics. With antibiotics it looks you are solving the problem, but it is just masked and spread wider.
I believe my bees have spores of AFB in the hives, but they are great " cleaners" and it doesn't outkbreak. As you mentioned, stress is the trigger as I believe. Stress - mostly caused by beekeepers.
There are in my area from time to time outburst of AFB, I just wait the moment when mine will go for robbing and bring some.. Only saving me is cause I am pretty isolated ( more than 1,5km away from nearest - as said at such distance bringing of AFB can't be threat).

 

[mazzamazda]

Not really disease free are you - it seems you have one crop up every couple of months. Maybe it's time to grasp the nettle and not be so selective as to whose advice you listen to?

The advise I have previously taken is from a UK bee inspector, its my first time trying another method.

 

[mazzamazda]

As here we learned AFB doesn't smell, EFB smell.. So far had no chance to confirm.
As first step to get rid of AFB is to stop to use antibiotics. With antibiotics it looks you are solving the problem, but it is just masked and spread wider.
I believe my bees have spores of AFB in the hives, but they are great " cleaners" and it doesn't outkbreak. As you mentioned, stress is the trigger as I believe. Stress - mostly caused by beekeepers.
There are in my area from time to time outburst of AFB, I just wait the moment when mine will go for robbing and bring some.. Only saving me is cause I am pretty isolated ( more than 1,5km away from nearest - as said at such distance bringing of AFB can't be threat).

They both smell, its where it gets its name. I can smell the moment I open a hive. What I understand is tylan, instead of the overused terramycin if used properly you save your bees. I'll let you know!

 

[Finman]

As here we learned AFB doesn't smell, EFB smell.. So far had no chance to confirm.
As first step to get rid of AFB is to stop to use antibiotics. With antibiotics it looks you are solving the problem, but it is just masked and spread wider.
I believe my bees have spores of AFB in the hives, but they are great " cleaners" and it doesn't outkbreak. As you mentioned, stress is the trigger as I believe. Stress - mostly caused by beekeepers.
There are in my area from time to time outburst of AFB, I just wait the moment when mine will go for robbing and bring some.. Only saving me is cause I am pretty isolated ( more than 1,5km away from nearest - as said at such distance bringing of AFB can't be threat).

I think that yoj gave not nuch expetn

 

[Finman]

As here we learned AFB doesn't smell, EFB smell.. So far had no chance to confirm.
As first step to get rid of AFB is to stop to use antibiotics. With antibiotics it looks you are solving the problem, but it is just masked and spread wider.
I believe my bees have spores of AFB in the hives, but they are great " cleaners" and it doesn't outkbreak. As you mentioned, stress is the trigger as I believe. Stress - mostly caused by beekeepers.
There are in my area from time to time outburst of AFB, I just wait the moment when mine will go for robbing and bring some.. Only saving me is cause I am pretty isolated ( more than 1,5km away from nearest - as said at such distance bringing of AFB can't be threat).

I think that you have not much real experience about AFB. Nothing in your advices is correct.

1,5 km is not a safe distance. It is under average foraging distance.

If your neighbour has honey to rob, or sun comb melter, it surely offer enough spores to brake out AfB. But, ABF does not break from one spore or ten spore.



There was once a study about spreading ABF.

There was 10 hives in the yard. To one hive it was given extracted combs from AFB hive. After a week in every 10 hives was detected afb spores.

Neighbour hives participate to the extraction jubileum, even if we do not believe it.

.

 

[Finman]

.
Non visible spores

Antibiots does not sterilize the hive. It protects only a larva and pupa during that time when antibiot is in blood.

When infection is under visible level, larva makes a small droplet of poo between pupa silks. There spores stays alive in that poo as long as combs are used. Breaking comb relieses the spores. That is why antibiot only "mask" the disease. But that term mask is false term. Antibiot really works so long as it is in the blood.

It is same in humans. If a person does not believe doctor's orders, and stops too early the medication, disease breaks easily again.

But when you move the colony to foundations, when bees have still antibiot in blood, propably infections stays behind the entrance. And with antibiots you save the brood. Last summer I medicated a stong hive. It had 18 frames boxes brood and I saved all the brood up to emerging so.

 

[alldigging]

The reason I mentioned a kit for Beeks was simply to ask if it would be useful for a test BEFORE you call an inspector, that way maybe less time spent on false call outs? anyway I have hijacked the thread, sorry about that. i will start a fresh one

Chance of a false negative. Cost of kit. Expiry dates on kit. Correct storage of test kit.
Different tester needed for AFB to EFB.

http://articles.extension.org/pages/21718/diagnostic-kits-for-american-and-european-foulbrood

And if you've got dodgy looking cells then a visit from the SBI or RBI probably wouldn't hurt for some bee health advice.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Chance of a false negative. Cost of kit. Expiry dates on kit. Correct storage of test kit.
Different tester needed for AFB to EFB.

http://articles.extension.org/pages/21718/diagnostic-kits-for-american-and-european-foulbrood

And if you've got dodgy looking cells then a visit from the SBI or RBI probably wouldn't hurt for some bee health advice.

This was probably a bad thread for me to post this, I wasnt specifically talking about AFB. I was talking in more general terms (although I didnt make this clear), field wise we test for ~30 different markers. In the lab we obviously have the ability to test for far more, I apologize for making it seem like I was being specific to AFB, having said that we can and do pick up real positives before there is much actual visual evidence of the disease. When I get a chance I will post alot more information in a separate thread.

 

[Goran]

They both smell, its where it gets its name. I can smell the moment I open a hive. What I understand is tylan, instead of the overused terramycin if used properly you save your bees. I'll let you know!

Quoted:
" Old literature gives the data that in the hives in which is determined AFB smell as carpenter's glue. That is incorrect data.
Characteristic, unpleasant-acid smell is felt when colony is infected with EFB ( causer Melissococcus pluton). Namely, older scientific-proffesional sources cite that false foulbrood (Paenibacillus alvei) and acid brood ( Enterococcus faecalis) occur as independent diseases. Modern sources doesn't separate these two diseases but tell that Paenibacillus alvei, Bacterium eurydice, Brevibacillus laterosporus iEnterococcus faecalis occur as secondary bacterial causers at EFB. Also, there are thinking that due to epizootic complexity, EFB should call and observe as syndrome of EFB."

By the way, it is also told that is determined that less than 10 spores are enough to iniciate infection ( number 8,49 ring in my ears, If I refer correct).

Quaranteen for AFB is if I remember 1,5km radius.. This not just bumped, it seems from that distance bees don't bring back AFB.. I got this data at one lecture pretty long ago.. Now I forgot from where to quote. If I find it, I will quote it here..

 

[REDWOOD]

In Spain AFB situation is what it is . If you go with UK advices, soon you do not have any colony. You have only ash pits. You may grow tomatoes in them. Backround is so contaminated.

Scandinavia and Germany has different style. USA has its antibiot style, and so on.

Which combinations of treatment works in Spain, when you know the tools, it is up to you then.
.

Obviously the situation has spiraled out of control when it should have been nipped in the bud long ago, I beleive thirty year the spores can lay dormant before popping up again and infecting more colonies. I can't see a future with Spanish beekeepers unless they do start destroying frames and scorching hive equipment and heavily affected colonies destroyed. Personally I would have no problem destroying a couple of hives for the sake of many.

 

[mbc]

Obviously the situation has spiraled out of control when it should have been nipped in the bud long ago, I believe thirty year the spores can lay dormant before popping up again and infecting more colonies. I can't see a future with Spanish beekeepers unless they do start destroying frames and scorching hive equipment and heavily affected colonies destroyed. Personally I would have no problem destroying a couple of hives for the sake of many.

The thing is, Spain has a much bigger bee population than us (bigger than the USA's iirc) and a healthier prognosis than our beekeepers for he future, certainly from a commercial perspective. With this in mind its hard to justify a holier than thou attitude towards their bee health management.

 

[mazzamazda]

Obviously the situation has spiraled out of control when it should have been nipped in the bud long ago, I beleive thirty year the spores can lay dormant before popping up again and infecting more colonies. I can't see a future with Spanish beekeepers unless they do start destroying frames and scorching hive equipment and heavily affected colonies destroyed. Personally I would have no problem destroying a couple of hives for the sake of many.

I've been destroying whole hives for years, I dont have a problem destroying a few, in 2015 I stopped counting at 30 hives, I possibly burnt around 50 from various apiaries. Now I'm looking at other options.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

LFDs for EFB can be bought cheaply enough from Paynes, they have a fairly good shelf life. http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/supplements-others/efb-kit/

If you could produce a kit that's at least as accurate and of a similar price then some beekeepers might be interested in buying them, but initial marketing might be a problem and you might need endorsement from the inspectorate to encourage take-up.

I Apologize, i missed your post! While i am employed by a private company (at present), we are working in conjunction with a university. the university side of the study is government funded, if we find evidence to suggest that testing kits would make an impact on disease, then inspectorate endorsement would be automatic. Before I am jumped on, the kit side of things would be done via the university side of the study, they are actively advising the government in disease management, without going into an extremely long explanation as to why and how, we would develop the kit and the university would test it. If successful then it is likely to be taken up.

As to the issue of cost, this is a thorny one. I am going to make an educated guess here, it would be likely that you could call an inspector and be sent a kit FOC, or issued one for follow up test's by an inspector. I would also think once fully license compliment Keepers would be able to purchase themselves.

At the moment this is mostly speculation based upon discussion on opening up the technology, currently we developed something we only ever saw as a tool for us to use, it was never developed with a wider audience in mind.
If it would have a positive impact then i can see no reason why the company wouldnt apply for a patent and compliance license.

Personally i would push hard to make the technology as widely available as possible, there are mechanisms within the EU that would allow the company to release this without loosing money, in short a license could be purchased and the product charged at base cost.

J.Bell

 

[Finman]

.
If test kit in AFB would be usefull, it should reviele out spores in the hive. Test does not help, if you see the disease allready with eyes.

German tests tell, that laboratory test finds out spores 2 years earlier than symptoms become visual.


As said before, EFB is not a problem.
.