AFB again

[mazzamazda]

One for Finman really, I have AFB again on a hive with double brood, a really strong hive. I think I have made a mistake using Tylosine. I went yesterday to treat, after checking 150 or so hives, I was tired. I took all the sealed brood frames out with around 30 punctured cells for the whole hive. I reduced it to single brood, left the frames which were still open brood and some open honey stores. I treated the top of the frames with icing sugar and tylosine mix. I now think I should have changed ALL the frames for new?

Problem is its a terrible year for honey here and the hive is 80 kms away so its difficult to feed.

Also a very strange situation happened, I took my wife round the hives last week, I was just explaining how we should look at the front of the hives to check for strong/weak hives, check strong ones first etc. The first hive we checked which was the strongest, opened crownboard, she said whats that smell, I said its AFB, took out one frame, it was the oldest frame so I know it to look at, the only one. Anyway I had a look, perforated cells, brown slime behind it AFB. Closed the hive. Yesterday I went back, smell gone, took out the very same frame, No perforated cells, checked every frame in the top, no AFB, only AFB cells in the bottom box, which I didnt check last time. I thought once a cell is infected thats it?

Everyday is a school day.

Any thoughts or suggestions?

 

[Finman]

.
I do not how you handled hives.
Tylosine saves the larvae. Old disease spores remains in combs. Tylosine does not kill spores.

You must take the queen off, that hive does not make larvae any more. When bees emerge, you can save them and move them with AS system to foundations.

Without tylosine afb spreads very fast in the hive, when you see first black slime holes. In two weeks over half of brood will be rotten.

After emerging you must destroy combs.

When you have used tylosine, to sell honey from this hive is forbidden. Abf contaminated honey is allowed to sell.

But mostly you sell bees.
.

 

[B+.]

.
. Abf contaminated honey is allowed to sell.

But mostly you sell bees.
.

A very good reason why beekeepers shouldn't feed honey back to bees!

In the UK, the solution is a burn pit.

 

[Finman]

A very good reason why beekeepers shouldn't feed honey back to bees!
.

Afb is rare in UK. Nosema contaminated honey is bigger problem as winter food. Nosema strikes in autumn. Vain to treat in spring any more.

Disease identificiation is not a best virtue among hobby beekeepers, but discussion about different type viruses, A or B seems to every boy's hype.

 

[B+.]

Afb is rare in UK. Nosema contaminated honey is bigger problem as winter food. Nosema strikes in autumn. Vain to treat in spring any more.

Disease identificiation is not a best virtue among hobby beekeepers, but discussion about different type viruses, A or B seems to every boy's hype.

Without a lab and all the latest high-tech equipment (and the knowledge of how to use it) all of this discussion about virus types is entirely academic.

AFB is rare in the UK because we have a zero-tolerance approach, backed up by laws that require beekeepers to inform APHA if disease is suspected. Nowadays, we have the lateral flow devices to confirm AFB/EFB so there is little reason why it should not be diagnosed.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Without a lab and all the latest high-tech equipment (and the knowledge of how to use it) all of this discussion about virus types is entirely academic.

AFB is rare in the UK because we have a zero-tolerance approach, backed up by laws that require beekeepers to inform APHA if disease is suspected. Nowadays, we have the lateral flow devices to confirm AFB/EFB so there is little reason why it should not be diagnosed.

Would Bee keepers be prepared to pay for easy to use diagnostic kits? What as Bee keepers would you consider a reasonable amount to pay for a kit that would offer a reasonable detection rate for most common diseases?

What prompted my question was the comment about lab equipment, it is possible in many cases to develop field test kits for different diseases (not just Bee ones), in the case of a virus it would aim to detect a specific metabolite of the virus responsible.

these kinds of field kits are not infallible, however I can see some merit in a field test that may be able to give an early warning.

 

[Zante]

Would Bee keepers be prepared to pay for easy to use diagnostic kits? What as Bee keepers would you consider a reasonable amount to pay for a kit that would offer a reasonable detection rate for most common diseases?

What prompted my question was the comment about lab equipment, it is possible in many cases to develop field test kits for different diseases (not just Bee ones), in the case of a virus it would aim to detect a specific metabolite of the virus responsible.

these kinds of field kits are not infallible, however I can see some merit in a field test that may be able to give an early warning.

How long is a piece of string?
I know what you mean. Coming from the aquarium hobby I am familiar with field test kits. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, ph, calcium, carbonates, magnesium, iodide/iodine, copper, barium, strontium, and so on.
They have a price and there are fish keepers who will have the whole range, there are fish keepers who will send water samples to Germany to be analysed, there are fish keepers who will stick to the basic ones and there are fish keepers who don't use them because by now they know their water and their fish, and fish keepers who won't use them because they're expensive.

I do believe the same will apply here.

How much will a test cost?
How often do you repeat it?
How much will it cost in terms of bees/brood/wax?
How accurate is it? Chance of false positives? Chance of false negatives?
How easy is it to test and how easy is it to read?

... And so on.

Some will use them and some won't because "it's too expensive", "I can do without", "I don't understand it", "Too inaccurate", "Tried it and it gave two false positives", "a spoonful of frame with brood each week is too much", "Once a month is too often" and many other reasons which will be perfectly valid for those giving them.

 

[Dr J.Bell]

How long is a piece of string?
I know what you mean. Coming from the aquarium hobby I am familiar with field test kits. Ammonia, nitrites, nitrates, oh, calcium, carbonates, magnesium, iodide/iodine, copper, barium, strontium, and so on.
They have a price and there are fish keepers who will have the whole range, there are fish keepers who will send water samples to Germany to be anslysed, there are fish keepers who will stick to the basic ones and there are fish keepers who don't use them because by now they know their water and their fish, and fish keepers who won't use them because they're expensive.

I do believe the same will apply here.

How much will a test cost?
How often do you repeat it?
How much will it cost in terms of bees/brood/wax?
How accurate is it? Chance of false positives? Chance of false negatives?
How easy is it to test and how easy is it to read?

... And so on.

The main reason I asked was to do with something we have developed for our own use. Often when out in the field we have to choose between how much we can physically carry versus how much area we wish to cover in a given period.

To help us in the field we started to develop field test kits, these enable us to do quick 'n' dirty tests. While the number of false positives are higher than I would like, it has so far worked well. We use the kits to test quickly for a number of metabolites associated with various bacterial or viral infections.

For us a positive test coupled with observations etc allow us to decide quickly if we need to take samples, or if we mark the spot for a detailed analysis in the near future.

None of the kits are available publicly as they were developed specifically for a current project. The main problem at the moment would be price, being a research project we simply order chemicals etc from companies such as Sigma Aldrich. These are extremely expensive but for research work we have to do this.

Looking at some of the kits we developed, i can see scope to substantially reduce the cost by using other sources for the chemicals etc. Unless you are doing research there is often no need to use such high purity chemicals, but the question remains would people be inclined to invest in such equipment?

I dont have any idea of what it would cost at the moment, I know what it costs us and I doubt even the most keen small producer would consider it at the prices we pay!

I may have one of our team members look into the possibility of developing 'cheaper' versions of what we are currently using, I would think we would also include pre paid envelopes for samples to be sent directly to us for more accurate testing.

We have a paper currently being submitted, it is my personal opinion that upon publication money may well be made available to extend testing capability for smaller producers. While i am obviously constrained in what i am allowed to disclose pre publication, I can say the industry is facing an extremely tough time in the not to distant future, unless a more cohesive and aggressive approach is taken to combat some of the newer threats we face.

I am simply trying to gauge how much interest general Bee keepers have in being able to do more tests for health. I have met every type from those who would love a laboratory in the shed, to the type who at a push eventually pick up a phone to notify someone that they have a notifiable disease after having lost a great number of hives over several seasons.

Again it is my own opinion but i feel the greatest weapon we have we are not using properly, to me the average small scale Bee keeper is the greatest asset and yet the one we use the least.

 

[Worldsend]

Didn't the bee health advisors get given this type of test kit from the RBI so they could be tbe local first point of call

I think the project is on hold at present

 

[Finman]

Didn't the bee health advisors get given this type of test kit from the RBI so they could be tbe local first point of call

I think the project is on hold at present

What test?

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Didn't the bee health advisors get given this type of test kit from the RBI so they could be tbe local first point of call

I think the project is on hold at present

Ooo that is a somewhat political question! No they were given a completely different kit, i am not in a position to comment on what happened or why the whole project was..............misguided.

The kits we use were developed by ourselves to help us with a specific problem, we needed a fast way to identify sites that were possible targets for taking more comprehensive samples. We came up with a different technique to the one that was trialed. The only problem I can see at the moment is us not having applied for a patent on it.

It is something i will bring up at the next meeting with the team, personally i would prefer something beeks can use. I think it would be more widely used, and more people would pick up the phone in a shorter time frame if they had a test and not just a gut feeling or sick hive.

Most of the kits would not be too difficult to manufacture, ultimately we are talking about a test that changes colour on a positive detection of certain metabolites. Some of the tests are more complicated and unlikely to be much use to the average person.

The reason we did this was simply because of time frames, alot of what we do (particularly in the field) requires very strict bio security measures, this is especially true when taking samples.

For us it isnt just a simple task of taking a sample when we find something out of the ordinary, we have to go through a time consuming procedure before we 'bag n tag' a sample, everything is done to make sure we dont compromise the bio security of our lab or site. The lab where i currently work is part of a research hub, it would be easy to ruin years of other peoples research by being careless with what and how we bring things in.

We also share building space with a group working on different projects that have nothing to do with Bees, not ideal but in this day and age research money and space is scarce.

 

[Hivemaker.]

Didn't the bee health advisors get given this type of test kit from the RBI so they could be tbe local first point of call

Yes, the lateral flow devices for detection of EFB or AFB, bee farmers on the DASH scheme can also get them, or they can be bought from certain be appliance suppliers.

I prefer to use a microscope.

 

[For want of a better word]

Vita?? manufacture the lateral flow test kits and UK beekeepers who would HAVE to inform their local bee inspector... under UK law AFB and EFB are notifiable diseases. Colonies that test Positive ( FOR FREE) are destroyed and an exclusion zone and a stand still notice are imposed.
AS previously stated AFB is often caused by infected honey ( another import that should be banned!)
I do not know if Vita sell the kits to Portugal?

Nos da

 

[Finman]

.
I was told that, AFB test is for inspector. When they see visually AFB, they can confirm the disease, and then they can command to burn hive.

Test does not reviele spores.

I do not know any disease detector kits.
.

 

[Finman]

.
But this discussion is mad. All bees' 32 diseases in same heap.

Some one needs first healing

(divorse from EU and ban import)

 

[For want of a better word]

.
I was told that, AFB test is for inspector. When they see visually AFB, they can confirm the disease, and then they can command to burn hive.

Test does not reviele spores.

Correct test confirms disease from dead and putrifying larvae
Does not test for spores.
Reason why all equipment and bees must be destroyed by fire and imported honey must never be allowed to be fed to bees as most of it is contaminated.

Nos da

I do not know any disease detector kits.
.

Trust Finnman

 

[Dr J.Bell]

Vita?? manufacture the lateral flow test kits and UK beekeepers who would HAVE to inform their local bee inspector... under UK law AFB and EFB are notifiable diseases. Colonies that test Positive ( FOR FREE) are destroyed and an exclusion zone and a stand still notice are imposed.
AS previously stated AFB is often caused by infected honey ( another import that should be banned!)
I do not know if Vita sell the kits to Portugal?

Nos da

I might start a different thread on this when i get a chance, i can see total confusion! As far as I am aware there is NO kit on the market for testing for metabolites of disease organisms, this is why we developed some field kits for our OWN use. What we do in the field is alot different from what inspectors do!
We also deal with wild colonies, any we identify as diseased are sampled and reported once confirmed.

The reason I mentioned a kit for Beeks was simply to ask if it would be useful for a test BEFORE you call an inspector, that way maybe less time spent on false call outs? anyway I have hijacked the thread, sorry about that. i will start a fresh one

 

[mazzamazda]

I might start a different thread on this when i get a chance, i can see total confusion! As far as I am aware there is NO kit on the market for testing for metabolites of disease organisms, this is why we developed some field kits for our OWN use. What we do in the field is alot different from what inspectors do!
We also deal with wild colonies, any we identify as diseased are sampled and reported once confirmed.

The reason I mentioned a kit for Beeks was simply to ask if it would be useful for a test BEFORE you call an inspector, that way maybe less time spent on false call outs? anyway I have hijacked the thread, sorry about that. i will start a fresh one

I'm going to be as honest as I can with this one....
I with respect don't need a test kit, my wife who isnt a beekeeper even smelt AFB straight away and I'd say she has opened less than 300 hives. If I was in the UK I would love to be able to just ring up a bee inspector FOC, show my concerns and have a test done, a chit chat and a coffee about how well my bees are doing or not. Usually a thank you from her/him for being a conscientious beekeeper and wish you were all like that. In Portugal, I WISH! Its a case of comercial beekeepers have to register bees, get a number, get honey tested and get constant hassle from blueberry/raspberry land owners to cut grass move hives etc.... Most have an infected hive or two on top of their house, when it dies out to AFB its just left there to infect the hives of people who try and do things to the letter of the law.
I did buy a test kit just to prove to a local beekeeper I had AFB, I bought it from Thornes.

Good luck in your venture though.

 

[mazzamazda]

.
I do not how you handled hives.
Tylosine saves the larvae. Old disease spores remains in combs. Tylosine does not kill spores.

You must take the queen off, that hive does not make larvae any more. When bees emerge, you can save them and move them with AS system to foundations.

Without tylosine afb spreads very fast in the hive, when you see first black slime holes. In two weeks over half of brood will be rotten.

After emerging you must destroy combs.

When you have used tylosine, to sell honey from this hive is forbidden. Abf contaminated honey is allowed to sell.

But mostly you sell bees.
.

Thank you for your reply.

So Its a kill queen, shook swarm to new frames and treat?

Thats the thing with this hive there seems to be some repair being done by the hive, I havent ever seen this with AFB.

Yes I sell bees so I just need to do another shook swarm before selling although if this hive is infected I'll keep it until next season especially as I'm interested how it is managing to clean out cells.

Many thanks Finman.

 

[mazzamazda]

Vita?? manufacture the lateral flow test kits and UK beekeepers who would HAVE to inform their local bee inspector... under UK law AFB and EFB are notifiable diseases. Colonies that test Positive ( FOR FREE) are destroyed and an exclusion zone and a stand still notice are imposed.
AS previously stated AFB is often caused by infected honey ( another import that should be banned!)
I do not know if Vita sell the kits to Portugal?

Nos da

To be honest AFB spores are in every colony, I caused this outbreak when I put stress on the colony by adding a broodbox. Honey has got something to do with it but the chances of getting a hive infected from imported honey must be minuscule. I ordered a test kit from thornes but as those who have had AFB will tell you, you know when you have it.