50% losses winter 2012/2013

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This example about insulated = survival
does not work at all. In my "experiment", I overwintered 11 nucs in 9mm ply boxes with kingspan or poly on the roof. They all survived.

Does that mean uninsulated = survival?


I think not.
 
This example about insulated = survival
does not work at all. In my "experiment", I overwintered 11 nucs in 9mm ply boxes with kingspan or poly on the roof. They all survived.

Does that mean uninsulated = survival?


I think not.
so why did you put the kinspan on the roof of them?

Read it again insulation = increased survival margin It does not directly equate to SURVIVAL or DEATH.

Survival margin has the dimensions of power e.g. Watts, Survival is a dimensionless boolean quantity.
when the survival margin below zero you get death.

If you want to kill your bees last winter, go back in time and remove the kingspan
 
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This has been a really good thread ... the higher physics is a bit beyond me but I'm getting some good stuff out of the words I understand ... thanks Guys, good debate !
 
The above maths was all in the same units. It was simplified but has no linearity assumed. If you want a discussion that describes C and i as functions of temperature we can and the criticallity being a set temperature or a function of temperature. It wont change the conclusion.

Note The other factors you allude to are in the Energy/power equation. i.e. Disease reduces power generation capacity(W). Parasites increase power losses(W). Low level poisoning reduces power generation capability.
all of these factors can be represented as addition power load on the system.

We can add layer after layer of complexity. But for survivablity (to survive additional load) to increase, you need to increase the surplus power generation capacity(given fuel is present) by either increasing generation(more bees,less disease) or reducing losses (more insulation, less parasites).
However, increased power generation has its draw backs. e.g. Larger numbers of an animal, tightly confined, increase the probabilty of disease spread. Tightly confined they may not be able to reach fuel.

To understand what is happening to bees we should compare to a baseline of colony size and heat losses. That baseline should be located at the bees original N european habitat and colony and a not 20th century wooden box (note langstroths original idea was for an insulated hive).



And power is not just expressed as heat but also in bee creation capacity and the capacity to create fuel reserves

I'm sorry Derek but your 'simplistic' approach doesn't entirely cut it. It is more than just insulation and I would concur with MBC that the overwhelming factor influencing survival is the size of the cluster and it's relative health. In the UK we rarely see temperatures fall consistently below 0°C for extended periods. Contrast that with the likes of Finland and other parts of North Scandinavia, Canada and the North US where temperatures fall consistently well below -10°C for long periods which according to your 'simplified' model would result in high colony mortality rates. This is a point well made by Finman.

Using macro thermodynamics fails to appreciate the microdynamics of the cluster. It is not a uniform body and it is highly unlikely that individual bees will be generating heat constantly. They will take it in turns and I suspect will change position so that the centre of the cluster generates heat and the peripheral bees will huddle to help insulate the 'generators' and at the same time stay warm themselves. Moreover, microdynamics of convection and conduction are probably going to be far more important than the overall thermometric properties of the 'space' that the bees are contained in, and the critical factor will be the amount of air that the cluster captures within its structure. This is where critical mass comes in. A small cluster will be flat with a large surface area to volume ratio whereas a large cluster is more likely to form the most optimum shape of a ball, i.e. smallest surface area to volume ratio with optimal radial insulation and conduction. Essentially, a large cluster will be much more efficient in generating AND insulating the heat that is generated and will have proportionately smaller heat losses (per unit bee) than a small cluster.

And it is important to understand that survival is a complex interaction between individual bees and the cluster. In small clusters the loss of a single bee 'generating unit' will cause far more strain on the remaining units because the contribution from each individual bee generating unit has to increase significantly more than in a large cluster. Consequently, the bees in a smaller cluster have to work much harder for longer periods and therefore 'burn out' quicker. This is an inverse geometric relationship to cluster size which is why I agree with MBC. In terms of microdynamics this is also where dampness and drafts are far more likely to cause problems particularly in those diseases which result in 'wet' clusters, for example Nosema and this is simply because dampness reduces micro-insulation and promotes heat losses. It is also at this level that sub-lethal diseases/toxins are likely to have far reaching effects because it's not just about the ability of the bees to generate heat (i.e. the amount of paralysis), it is also about their ability to co-ordinate the higher level social functionality of the cluster i.e. co-ordinate swopping turns and rotating from feeding to generating to insulating/huddling etc.

I absolutely agree that better insulation will improve survival chances but it does not explain the relative increase in colony deaths in both insulated and uninsulated populations on a like for like basis and I repeat my earlier statement that there is much more going on than just the amount of insulation. I do agree with you that much more needs to be done to understand the thermodynamic profile of clusters but I don't believe it needs to be limited to insulated environments. I think it would be far more advantageous to understand cluster performance in stressed conditions especially with respect to exposure to drafts, damp, disease and poisoning.

Kind regards,

Karol
 
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I'm sorry Derek but your 'simplistic' approach doesn't entirely cut it. It is more than just insulation and I would concur with MBC that the overwhelming factor influencing survival is the size of the cluster and it's relative health. In the UK we rarely see temperatures fall consistently below 0°C for extended periods. Contrast that with the likes of Finland and other parts of North Scandinavia, Canada and the North US where temperatures fall consistently well below -10°C for long periods which according to your 'simplified' model would result in high colony mortality rates. This is a point well made by Finman.

Using macro thermodynamics fails to appreciate the microdynamics of the cluster. It is not a uniform body and it is highly unlikely that individual bees will be generating heat constantly. They will take it in turns and I suspect will change position so that the centre of the cluster generates heat and the peripheral bees will huddle to help insulate the 'generators' and at the same time stay warm themselves. Moreover, microdynamics of convection and conduction are probably going to be far more important than the overall thermometric properties of the 'space' that the bees are contained in, and the critical factor will be the amount of air that the cluster captures within its structure. This is where critical mass comes in. A small cluster will be flat with a large surface area to volume ratio whereas a large cluster is more likely to form the most optimum shape of a ball, i.e. smallest surface area to volume ratio with optimal radial insulation and conduction. Essentially, a large cluster will be much more efficient in generating AND insulating the heat that is generated and will have proportionately smaller heat losses (per unit bee) than a small cluster.

And it is important to understand that survival is a complex interaction between individual bees and the cluster. In small clusters the loss of a single bee 'generating unit' will cause far more strain on the remaining units because the contribution from each individual bee generating unit has to increase significantly more than in a large cluster. Consequently, the bees in a smaller cluster have to work much harder for longer periods and therefore 'burn out' quicker. This is an inverse geometric relationship to cluster size which is why I agree with MBC. In terms of microdynamics this is also where dampness and drafts are far more likely to cause problems particularly in those diseases which result in 'wet' clusters, for example Nosema and this is simply because dampness reduces micro-insulation and promotes heat losses. It is also at this level that sub-lethal diseases/toxins are likely to have far reaching effects because it's not just about the ability of the bees to generate heat (i.e. the amount of paralysis), it is also about their ability to co-ordinate the higher level social functionality of the cluster i.e. co-ordinate swopping turns and rotating from feeding to generating to insulating/huddling etc.

I absolutely agree that better insulation will improve survival chances but it does not explain the relative increase in colony deaths in both insulated and uninsulated populations on a like for like basis and I repeat my earlier statement that there is much more going on than just the amount of insulation. I do agree with you that much more needs to be done to understand the thermodynamic profile of clusters but I don't believe it needs to be limited to insulated environments. I think it would be far more advantageous to understand cluster performance in stressed conditions especially with respect to exposure to drafts, damp, disease and poisoning.

Kind regards,

Karol

Karol, Do some research on the colony size issue... Beekeepers are manipulating the colony size. There is a critcal colony size that changes thermal properties of the cluster. its around 1.7Kg (Southwick). But that critcallity only applies to thermally stressed colonies. At nest conductances at or below 0.75 W/K , small colonies can survive extreme conditions and then build up well.(Villumstad)

At and above 1.7kg colony size, the bees can do some of what the beek has failed to do, by further decreasing the colony conductance.

A bad winter following a bad summer reveals the weakness in relying solely on colony size as you will get higher percentage below the critical mass.
Note: high winter colony losses also reflect the thermal losses during the summer, preventing the faster build up of the colony to achieve the critical mass.

Having successful got 5 small colonies through both calamities ,with minimal feeding and no treatment, I can feel I have at least verified this to the limit of my resources.

As regards iinsulated... Polyhives are in their current form although an improvement, are not sufficient, as they are mostly only halfway between a tree nest and a wooden hive

As regards relating the micro to the macro, I suggest some reading in Statistical Mechanics if you havent already done so.

A cupful of bees can survive long periods of winter cold with the correct insulation in the correct sized cavity and then build up. (I know someone who has done this)
 
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I wonder just how so many people know the exact way in which bees cluster during the winter..... Winter being a period in which one would not expect people to be poking around in a hive.
I would think that bees might find it easier and more natural to move upwards to the food than having to wander around looking for food. Upwards is natural. Thats why they store food upstairs and not downstairs in the room down the hall.
In my obs hive....
In winter bees cluster (more like congregate) a bit closer together the colder it is outside. They move further way from the entrance if there is a strong cold wind, but it is only the bees nearest the entrance that move up, not all the bees. They dont cluster or stand around on their stores. They eat and move away. Very slowly. Its possible (my theory)that they act like penguins, each taking their turn on the outer edges.
They consume only a small amount of their stores between November and whenever spring might start, then once it warms up a bit and the queen starts laying they will eat the rest of what is there, and pretty damn quickly as well.
At present I can see more movement in the hive in one day (probably less) than I would see in 4 or 5 winter months.
???????????? If you have only one box, and its bloody cold and windy, where do the bees move to if they cant go up and away from the door? Sideways doesnt help much. If there was an empty box below with some kind of insulation or bags of wood shavings, would this not act as a baffle from the cold?
 
does it matter if they are on open mesh floor? I dont think the entrance makes much difference
 
A cupful of bees can survive long periods of winter cold with the correct insulation in the correct sized cavity and then build up. (I know someone who has done this)

I know that cupfull of bees are not able to build up. Furthermore, if bees are cupfull, reason is mostly nosema, and it promises no good to colony.

I have wintered 2 frames colonies with 3 W electrict heating but those hives are not able to make brood in spring. half of bees die during winter. So you have one frame left.

3 frames covered with bees is minimum where bees can make brood.
If you want honey, practical minimum after winter is 5 frames bees.


Guys dream often about small colony, which eate little in winter, and build up faster. That is pure "once upon a time".


Eate little. Sugar cost is nothing.

.Today I have 2 box hives. They started from 3 frames. Then I have 6 box hives which started with normal colony after winter. Those normal hives have over 50 kg honey allready now. Small colonies uses all to feed larvae.
 
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Why would a person say that a cup ful of bees can survive if it were not something they knew for a fact?
 
Why would a person say that a cup ful of bees can survive if it were not something they knew for a fact?[/QUOTE]

And you believe every facts what guys tell to you

If I would believe all what is said in this forum, I would have only cupfull of dead bees in my yard.

Feed and shake.



-
 
A cupful of bees can survive long periods of winter cold with the correct insulation in the correct sized cavity and then build up.

I know that cupfull of bees are not able to build up. Furthermore, if bees are cupfull, reason is mostly nosema, and it promises no good to colony.

I think what Derek meant was the example of overwintering a poly mating nuc. We have done it with Apideas - definitely not what they were designed/intended for, but it is possible with very close attention, and they can be built into full colonies the next season. IMHO it's an academic exercise rather than a viable queen banking / insurance nuc approach.
 
And you believe every facts what guys tell to you

I do until I know otherwise.. Its called learning.

I dont take much notice of merchant bankers.

If I would believe all what is said in this forum, I would have only cupfull of dead bees in my yard.
We are gratefull and honoured with your presence then.
 
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If god hadnt meant us to merchant bank, he'd of given us shorter arms

He did......but it didn't stop bankers playing with other peoples deposits!
 
I think what Derek meant was the example of overwintering a poly mating nuc. We have done it with Apideas - definitely not what they were designed/intended for, but it is possible with very close attention, and they can be built into full colonies the next season. IMHO it's an academic exercise rather than a viable queen banking / insurance nuc approach.

It was done this year not in an apidea, but in something very much more suitable and without the close attention. I won't say anymore as this was another persons work, and I don't want to steal their thunder.
 

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