50% losses winter 2012/2013

[Finman]

I have experimentally(with scientific rigor )measured the thermal conductance of various hives output of a medium sized colony.

You said that colonies go into cluster under -25C.

I have seen hundreds of hives that that your "knowledge" has nothing to do with practice.
You may measure what ever but you speak nonsense under "scientic rigors."
I have a researcher education in biology and I have afford to say what I know. You cannot hidden youself behind clever sentences.

.

 

[user 6228]

You said that colonies go into cluster under -25C.

I have seen hundreds of hives that that your "knowledge" has nothing to do with practice.
You may measure what ever but you speak nonsense under "scientic rigors."
I have a researcher education in biology and I have afford to say what I know. You cannot hidden youself behind clever sentences.

.

if you insulate enough you get 45C temperature differential between top of the cavity and the outside using power output easily within the range of a average colony of bees . A tree cavity is insulated enough.

Your hundreds of hives and many years of experience in beekeeping and researcher education in biology say nothing about the thermal conductance of tree cavities and bee hives.

Wooden boxes and cavities in trees are subject to the laws of physics.

I did research in physics but thats irelevent because I can say I know because I have the experimental proof. Its not conjecture, its measured, and when I complete this research I will write it up and I will get it published.

I have stood up in front of 5 separate audiences of beekeepers with this and they have all come away convinced and even entertained.

 

[Karol]

if you insulate enough you get 45C temperature differential between top of the cavity and the outside using power output easily within the range of a average colony of bees . A tree cavity is insulated enough.

Your hundreds of hives and many years of experience in beekeeping and researcher education in biology say nothing about the thermal conductance of tree cavities and bee hives.

Wooden boxes and cavities in trees are subject to the laws of physics.

I did research in physics but thats irelevent because I can say I know because I have the experimental proof. Its not conjecture, its measured, and when I complete this research I will write it up and I will get it published.

I have stood up in front of 5 separate audiences of beekeepers with this and they have all come away convinced and even entertained.

All fascinating stuff.

I'm not sure how relevant it is though to survival rates. It strikes me that we had much harder and longer winters in 2009 & 2010 than we have had this year. And I suspect that bee keeping hasn't seen much of a change in the distribution of hive types or bee keeping practices to explain the difference in survival rates.

Is there any research that has looked at measuring the temperature of clusters to see if there is any relationship between core temperatures and survival or other external factors for that matter?

I think it is a shame if the discussion cannot consider all of the possible causes that might increase colony losses. I imagine that lots of factors are likely to impact on the ability of bees to cluster effectively and to avoid isolation starvation. It also strikes me that those bees that avoid isolation starvation must have employed some mechanism to avoid it.

Regards,

Karol

 

[pargyle]

All fascinating stuff.

Is there any research that has looked at measuring the temperature of clusters to see if there is any relationship between core temperatures and survival or other external factors for that matter?l

I'm just about to fit my new hive with an internal temperature sensor and an internal humidity sensor with an external temp sensor as well. I'm thinking of adding a max/min themometer for good measure and then taking readings on a daily basis. Just for fun and curiosity at present.

Sounds roughly like the research you are looking for Karol, Watch this space.

I suspect that Derek M already has some info though ....

Phil

 

[Karol]

I'm just about to fit my new hive with an internal temperature sensor and an internal humidity sensor with an external temp sensor as well. I'm thinking of adding a max/min themometer for good measure and then taking readings on a daily basis. Just for fun and curiosity at present.

Sounds roughly like the research you are looking for Karol, Watch this space.

I suspect that Derek M already has some info though ....

Phil

I'm not sure. Will your equipment will be up to spec for the job? I suspect it would need a thermal imaging camera to measure the temperature in the cluster rather than ambient temperature in the hive.

 

[Karol]

I don't suppose ITLD you have any data you can share on your survival rates?

 

[clv101]

I'm not sure how relevant it is though to survival rates. It strikes me that we had much harder and longer winters in 2009 & 2010 than we have had this year.

I think the poor summer and resulting condition of the colonies going into winter had more effect than the winter itself.

 

[Karol]

I think the poor summer and resulting condition of the colonies going into winter had more effect than the winter itself.

Hmmm! I could understand that in a natural system but in managed systems where bees are proactively 'conditioned' before winter it still suggests that there is something else at play. The losses appear to be 3 times greater than normal relatively speaking. Is that like saying that bee keepers were three times more inept than usual at conditioning their bees into winter? I don't buy that inference. It needs to be remembered that the losses don't take into account the hives that are lost through combining prior to winter that should otherwise ameliorate winter losses to within the expected 10-15%. Has there been a 3 times increase in the number of inexperienced bee keepers going into winter? Again, the stats suggest that this is not a factor because the losses are being reported across the board. It suggests that there is something else at play.

 

[itma]

I'm not sure how relevant it is though to survival rates. It strikes me that we had much harder and longer winters in 2009 & 2010 than we have had this year. And I suspect that bee keeping hasn't seen much of a change in the distribution of hive types or bee keeping practices to explain the difference in survival rates.
...
I think it is a shame if the discussion cannot consider all of the possible causes that might increase colony losses.

Self evidently there are myriad possible factors.
And they will act cumulatively.
Some (like the weather) are beyond beekeeper control.

However where there IS a relevant factor that is within beekeeper control, it makes sense to try and optimise that individual variable.
If the factors are cumulative, that means they all matter.

One thing is abundantly clear to me. In the situation where two colonies were in identically difficult conditions, in a bad winter the one in the poly would stand a better chance than the one in the uninsulated wooden hive.
How much better chance? I don't know, beyond the fact that it is clearly better.
Compared to colony value, how much extra is it worth spending to move to poly? Its a no-brainer that if poly is cheaper and provides a benefit, then that is the way to go for future spending. I'll leave it to the farmers to 'do the maths' and decide for themselves their optimal replacement schedule.



Poly is clearly a positive benefit. But what else?

I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that being prepared to open up in winter for fondant under the coverboard or frame rearrangement (to counter isolation starvation) is a better "survival strategy" than adopting the orthodox mantra of "its not safe to open them until the weather warms up in March or April".

Clearly, recognising the need for additional feeding (by hefting or weighing) is helpful, but not enough by itself.

 

[Polyanwood]

....... in a bad winter the one in the poly would stand a better chance than the one in the uninsulated wooden hive...........

Poly is clearly a positive benefit. But what else?

I'm going to stick my neck out and suggest that being prepared to open up in winter for fondant under the coverboard or frame rearrangement (to counter isolation starvation) is a better "survival strategy" than adopting the orthodox mantra of "its not safe to open them until the weather warms up in March or April".

Clearly, recognising the need for additional feeding (by hefting or weighing) is helpful, but not enough by itself.

I agree that so long as it is very quick it is sometimes worth peeking under the CB to make sure they don't starve in Winter. There are other things we need to watch out for too; like colonies being too small, not properly treated for varroa or carrying a high Nosema burden. Of these 3 it is the first that many new beekeepers don't understand.

 

[Finman]

if you insulate enough

.

Your hundreds of hives and many years of experience in beekeeping and researcher education in biology say nothing about the thermal conductance of tree cavities and bee hives.

Wooden boxes and cavities in trees are subject to the laws of physics.

I did research in physics .

Yes, I believe that you measure conductance. What then?

With that huge knowledge, how much you get honey per year? What are best yields and what is 10 years average.

You boot all my 50 years knowledge and my university education in biology.
What does it tell about you? A guy who does not know what he is doing.
I need not to say what I think about you.

Tree cavity...oh dear. You have not even winter in Britain.

I have wintered bees in wooden boxes 20 years. Only what they do is they consume 50% more sugar and are slow in spring build up. Foraging yield begins later.

.

 

[Finman]

I think the poor summer and resulting condition of the colonies going into winter had more effect than the winter itself.

Yes, it is.

We had too last summer in Finland very rainy and temps were under 20C.
It made that bees did not get enough good quality pollen. Winter clusters were smaller than normally. Winter losses were big and they continued during sprin.

Farmers cannot harvest their wheat in many places because seed had sometimes 30% rain water. Drying was more expencive than the value of yield.

2003 in Scandinavia and in North Germany late summer was extremely dry. About 60% of hives died during winter. So happened to my yard too.
Explanation was that there were not enough flowers and pollen and wintering bees were not enough feeded to stand wintering.

 

[BeeJayBee]

I don't suppose ITLD you have any data you can share on your survival rates?

He's probably abit busy just now, but he wrote this in April
http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=320897#post320897

Back today for first time in a while.

Current losses in polys running at about 18%, but as that includes the ones washed away in the floods its acceptable.

Same system, same environment, broadly similar forage......wooden hives running at over 40% losses with many more to come. ( tiny clusters and will collapse when they start to fly freely.)

All the units NOT exposed to neonics are terrible, way over 60% losses now, but thats down to lesser spring properity last year. All the poly hives worked OSR, so make of that what you will.

To Black Comb:

We have about approx 2700 when all full up.
This consists of:
800 Smiths (Wooden)
500 Langstroths (Wooden)
1400 Langstroth (Poly)
For various reasons ( still recovering from EFB outbreak and 2011 ws also hellish up here) we only peaked at 2350 last summer.

It seems to me a fair enough sample size to start drawing conclusions from.

 

[Finman]

http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?p=320897#post320897

he is a good explanation, what happened, not only in winter but during last summer.

How polyhive worked, I do not know. Perhaps warm hive helped to rear more young bees for winter.
Black bees were more cold sensitive and stopped brood rearing. So they suffered lack on wintering bees.

wooden hives -40% and polyhives -18%

However summer is the basic explanation because the result is exceptional.

.

 

[clv101]

Hmmm! I could understand that in a natural system but in managed systems where bees are proactively 'conditioned' before winter it still suggests that there is something else at play. The losses appear to be 3 times greater than normal relatively speaking. Is that like saying that bee keepers were three times more inept than usual at conditioning their bees into winter? I don't buy that inference. It needs to be remembered that the losses don't take into account the hives that are lost through combining prior to winter that should otherwise ameliorate winter losses to within the expected 10-15%. Has there been a 3 times increase in the number of inexperienced bee keepers going into winter? Again, the stats suggest that this is not a factor because the losses are being reported across the board. It suggests that there is something else at play.

I know what you mean... however, I think weather has a larger role than some bee keepers would like to admit. No amount of 'winter conditioning' can fully make up for the horrible summer of 2012. We are, largely, at the mercy of the weather.

 

[Hivemaker.]

I know what you mean... however, I think weather has a larger role than some bee keepers would like to admit. No amount of 'winter conditioning' can fully make up for the horrible summer of 2012. We are, largely, at the mercy of the weather.

I agree, a lot of colonies in some parts went into winter with old bees and very few if any young winter bees, due to lack of pollen, the protein needed to raise these young bees, and in many cases the old bees which were never meant to last long, managed to survive with very small clusters until around February, then along came March and five weeks of freezing weather to finish them off.

 

[Queens59]

I agree HM - I had 2 hives who limped through winter and just faded in March/April

 

[For want of a better word]

I agree, a lot of colonies in some parts went into winter with old bees and very few if any young winter bees, due to lack of pollen, the protein needed to raise these young bees, and in many cases the old bees which were never meant to last long, managed to survive with very small clusters until around February, then along came March and five weeks of freezing weather to finish them off.

That pretty well sums it up for all the beekeeperers in the S W peninsular !
Seems the Home counties and lands north of Watford had an easy time of it with all that insulating snow!

 

[user 6228]

Hmmm! I could understand that in a natural system but in managed systems where bees are proactively 'conditioned' before winter it still suggests that there is something else at play. The losses appear to be 3 times greater than normal relatively speaking. Is that like saying that bee keepers were three times more inept than usual at conditioning their bees into winter? I don't buy that inference. It needs to be remembered that the losses don't take into account the hives that are lost through combining prior to winter that should otherwise ameliorate winter losses to within the expected 10-15%. Has there been a 3 times increase in the number of inexperienced bee keepers going into winter? Again, the stats suggest that this is not a factor because the losses are being reported across the board. It suggests that there is something else at play.

To do anything needs energy, that goes for bees as well. To heat the cluster/hive, make new bees, survive disease, parasites. It all takes energy.
Thus from a high level view the basic thing we should is reduce any energy losses caused by our stewardship of the bees.
Beekeepers conditioning of colonies by feeding them up and combining is a compensation for high energy losses. Feeding = energy, large colonies have better surface area to volume ratios.

However, energy production by the bees consumes bee lives (A hard life reduces life expectancy... )

So baseline point to start from would be to reduce energy losses to that of an average colony in a natural habitat.


However the standard beehive loses energy at more than 4 times the rate of their natural habitat.

This will effect every aspect of a bee colonies progress as everything needs energy.

 

[Karol]

To do anything needs energy, that goes for bees as well. To heat the cluster/hive, make new bees, survive disease, parasites. It all takes energy.
Thus from a high level view the basic thing we should is reduce any energy losses caused by our stewardship of the bees.
Beekeepers conditioning of colonies by feeding them up and combining is a compensation for high energy losses. Feeding = energy, large colonies have better surface area to volume ratios.

However, energy production by the bees consumes bee lives (A hard life reduces life expectancy... )

So baseline point to start from would be to reduce energy losses to that of an average colony in a natural habitat.




However the standard beehive loses energy at more than 4 times the rate of their natural habitat.

This will effect every aspect of a bee colonies progress as everything needs energy.

Thank you.

However, be it as it may that the ratio is 4 times the rate of their natural habitat, it's still about relative trends, i.e. comparing colony survival in similar colonies.

A cluster requires critical 'mass' to sustain viable thermodynamics but it is much more than that. It is also the ability of that cluster to generate sustained heat production and anything that affects that ability will have a dramatic impact of the thermodynamic properties of the cluster. So the question also has to be asked whether or not there are any factors which might affect the ability of bees to generate heat, i.e. that might inhibit wing muscle contractility and frequency. DFW virus arguably could have such an impact if it affects wing muscle as well as wing structures.