50% losses winter 2012/2013

[Finman]

However the standard beehive loses energy at more than 4 times the rate of their natural habitat.

This will effect every aspect of a bee colonies progress as everything needs energy.

I asked, how much you get yield from your hives?

 

[user 6228]

I asked, how much you get yield from your hives?

what has that got to do with the laws of thermodynamics and the conductance of open bottomed air filled insulated cavities.

 

[user 6228]

Thank you.

However, be it as it may that the ratio is 4 times the rate of their natural habitat, it's still about relative trends, i.e. comparing colony survival in similar colonies.

A cluster requires critical 'mass' to sustain viable thermodynamics but it is much more than that. It is also the ability of that cluster to generate sustained heat production and anything that affects that ability will have a dramatic impact of the thermodynamic properties of the cluster. So the question also has to be asked whether or not there are any factors which might affect the ability of bees to generate heat, i.e. that might inhibit wing muscle contractility and frequency. DFW virus arguably could have such an impact if it affects wing muscle as well as wing structures.

I agree its a complex system... however a increased surplus in energy capacity relative to energy demands must allow for an increased margin for survival. As regards clustering, at the thermal conductivities of a tree nest, clustering will be optional for even meduum sized colony to outside temperature well below freezing.

 

[Karol]

I agree its a complex system... however a increased surplus in energy capacity relative to energy demands must allow for an increased margin for survival.

Must? That's one leap too far I think because it is predicated on the belief that that energy can be utilized. Dead bees by definition can't utilize energy just as sick bees can't utilize all the energy they need to even if it is available to them in excess of their needs. It strikes me as eminently obvious that a cluster will die if the bees can't generate enough heat. Understanding why is IMHO a large piece of the jigsaw.

As regards clustering, at the thermal conductivities of a tree nest, clustering will be optional for even meduum sized colony to outside temperature well below freezing.

But this is a red herring when we are comparing survival in domesticated colonies from one year to the next.

Regards,

Karol

 

[Finman]

what has that got to do with the laws of thermodynamics and the conductance of open bottomed air filled insulated cavities.

It has to do what you understand about beekeeping. No one nurse bees in tree hole.

.

 

[PBee]

Africa ....

India ....

..etc

 

[susbees]

I asked, how much you get yield from your hives?

The question is a fair one. You are providing what you perceive as an optimal environment for the bees - but do they agree? Honey production would be one useful indicator of this.

 

[user 6228]

Must? That's one leap too far I think because it is predicated on the belief that that energy can be utilized. Dead bees by definition can't utilize energy just as sick bees can't utilize all the energy they need to even if it is available to them in excess of their needs. It strikes me as eminently obvious that a cluster will die if the bees can't generate enough heat. Understanding why is IMHO a large piece of the jigsaw.



But this is a red herring when we are comparing survival in domesticated colonies from one year to the next.

Regards,

Karol

its basic thermodynamics... conservation of energy... you cant do work with out energy. That work might be anything. If the energy level of the system decreases the work it can do decreases. if you remove some of the energy from the system the system can do less work. If a system needs critical work to be done to sustain its existence, it requires a surplus of energy to maintain the critical work to deal with additonal loads that may occur. Reducing energy losses increases the surplus to deal with additional loads hance improves survival margins

 

[user 6228]

It has to do what you understand about beekeeping. No one nurse bees in tree hole.

.

Bees and their nest are inside our Universe. They obey the laws of heat and mass flow.

Cavities with the thermal conductance of a tree nest dont have to be a tree nest.

I think your demand for honey yield figures has more to do with an attempt to undermine an argument using a logically fallacy.

since by your very own words yield is mostly dependant on forage.

 

[Skyhook]

[

The question is a fair one. You are providing what you perceive as an optimal environment for the bees - but do they agree? Honey production would be one useful indicator of this.

Certainly; but that may be the next stage of the research. As non-university-backed project, 3 custom hives intensively monitored is probably enough to deal with, but a bit small for a survey sample. If the indications are promising, perhaps the next stage is a trial of 10 or 20 super-polys once the parameters are established.

.

 

[user 6228]

Last year by swarming and splitting, one national colony became 5... thats not much more than 2 frames each. The location is a mixture of heathland, woodland and suburbia. Nearest cultivated farmland 2Km away.
Each colony was placed in a very highly insulated nest. Through the wet spring/summer 2 of the 5 colonies were fed ~ 2 litres of syrup. In early autumn one colony was transferred to a commercially available poly hive in a different location.
Some heather honey was extracted in Autumn. None of the 4 remaining colonies were fed in Autumn. The bees were left with whatever ivy honey they managed to collect in the supers
The bees consumed over the normal winter period less than 500g fondat between them. Over the "extended winter" they consumed an average of below 2Kg of fondant each.
None of the hives were treated for varroa.
They all survived (as did the one in poly). A month ago another colony was transferred to a commercially available poly hive in a different location.

All 5 from the original colony are alive and laying well...

In summary:
we took very small colonies through the worst summer and winter in recent times and didnt condition them at all for a bad winter. They consumed minimal extra feed in the 12months. They survived and are doing well.

Too small a sample size but an interesting result.

 

[Finman]

since by your very own words yield is mostly dependant on forage.

´

I have said that dependent of pastures, how much is nectar on near landscape.

Choosing good pastures is much more important than to wonder insulation days after days.
.

.

 

[Karol]

its basic thermodynamics... conservation of energy... you cant do work with out energy. That work might be anything. If the energy level of the system decreases the work it can do decreases. if you remove some of the energy from the system the system can do less work. If a system needs critical work to be done to sustain its existence, it requires a surplus of energy to maintain the critical work to deal with additonal loads that may occur. Reducing energy losses increases the surplus to deal with additional loads hance improves survival margins

I think Derek that you are still missing my point.

Perhaps I can explain it another (hypothetical) way.

Colony A is exactly the same as colony B in every respect. Same number of bees in the cluster. Same excess of energy stores. Same environmental hive conditions, etc, etc.

The only difference is that colony B is afflicted with a condition that prevents the bees from generating the same amount of heat, e.g. paralysis of wing muscles in the thorax.

What will be the outcome in terms of survival chances?

Without understanding the ability of a cluster to generate heat it's impossible to know if colony loss is as a consequence of environmental stress or some other factor. In my simple way of thinking, healthy bees would consume more energy stores to survive. By contrast, sick bees would not consume their energy stores thereby leaving lots of food behind as they die.

 

[user 6228]

I think Derek that you are still missing my point.

Perhaps I can explain it another (hypothetical) way.

Colony A is exactly the same as colony B in every respect. Same number of bees in the cluster. Same excess of energy stores. Same environmental hive conditions, etc, etc.

The only difference is that colony B is afflicted with a condition that prevents the bees from generating the same amount of heat, e.g. paralysis of wing muscles in the thorax.

What will be the outcome in terms of survival chances?

Without understanding the ability of a cluster to generate heat it's impossible to know if colony loss is as a consequence of environmental stress or some other factor. In my simple way of thinking, healthy bees would consume more energy stores to survive. By contrast, sick bees would not consume their energy stores thereby leaving lots of food behind as they die.

Energy is not just the honey. its also about Energy rates i.e. power.
in your example the heat generating capacity is reduced. if that heat generating capacity falls below the critical point the colony dies.

G = original generating capicity
L = heating losses Watts
C = critical power level below which life ceases Watts
g= reduction in power due to paralysis Watts
i = reduction in losses due to insulation Watts
M= original survival margin Watts
M'= original survival margin with insulation Watts
by definition

total power and losses > C means survival
total power and losses < C meant death

before paralysis
G-L=C+M (not insulated)
G-L+i=C+M'(insulated)

after paralysis
G-L-g = C+M''(not insulated)
G-L-g+i =C+M'''(insulated)

The situation is
M>=0 which means original colony survives
M'' < 0 which means uninsulated colony dies with paralysis

therefore
if i > g then M''' >=0 therefore insulated colony survives with paralysis

 

[PBee]

 

[Karol]

Energy is not just the honey. its also about Energy rates i.e. power.
in your example the heat generating capacity is reduced. if that heat generating capacity falls below the critical point the colony dies.

G = original generating capicity
L = heating losses Watts
C = critical power level below which life ceases Watts
g= reduction in power due to paralysis Watts
i = reduction in losses due to insulation Watts
M= original survival margin Watts
M'= original survival margin with insulation Watts
by definition

total power and losses > C means survival
total power and losses < C meant death

before paralysis
G-L=C+M (not insulated)
G-L+i=C+M'(insulated)

after paralysis
G-L-g = C+M''(not insulated)
G-L-g+i =C+M'''(insulated)

The situation is
M>=0 which means original colony survives
M'' < 0 which means uninsulated colony dies with paralysis

therefore
if i > g then M''' >=0 therefore insulated colony survives with paralysis

:0)

To all intents and purposes I'll give you your 'thermodynamic' map albeit that it confuses temperature, heat and power (at least as far as the survival threshold goes) and assumes linearity.

I never denied your assumption that M''' >=0 and more (not all) insulated colonies survive with paralysis. But it still misses the point that the reported losses compare like with like, i.e. insulated vs insulated and non-insulated vs non-insulated and we have had harsher winters previously with lower rates of loss in uninsulated colonies. In those colonies that have died there has been an excess of food remaining in the hive. I agree that insulation helps but it is far from the whole story (IMHO)!

Regards,

Karol

 

[mbc]

Lol'

 

[mbc]

I agree that insulation helps but it is far from the whole story !


presactly !
The best thing to keep bees warm is more bees, always has been and always will be.
No doubt a warm and dry abode helps the bees concentrate on other things but on the other hand a big, healthy colony can survive in sub prime conditions of an exposed , cold and damp home whereas a small, struggling colony could be housed in the king of old oaks with tonnes of insulation, lay lines in all directions and a cherry on top but still fizzle out in a mild winter.

 

[user 6228]

:0)

To all intents and purposes I'll give you your 'thermodynamic' map albeit that it confuses temperature, heat and power (at least as far as the survival threshold goes) and assumes linearity.

I never denied your assumption that M''' >=0 and more (not all) insulated colonies survive with paralysis. But it still misses the point that the reported losses compare like with like, i.e. insulated vs insulated and non-insulated vs non-insulated and we have had harsher winters previously with lower rates of loss in uninsulated colonies. In those colonies that have died there has been an excess of food remaining in the hive. I agree that insulation helps but it is far from the whole story (IMHO)!

Regards,

Karol

The above maths was all in the same units. It was simplified but has no linearity assumed. If you want a discussion that describes C and i as functions of temperature we can and the criticallity being a set temperature or a function of temperature. It wont change the conclusion.

Note The other factors you allude to are in the Energy/power equation. i.e. Disease reduces power generation capacity(W). Parasites increase power losses(W). Low level poisoning reduces power generation capability.
all of these factors can be represented as addition power load on the system.

We can add layer after layer of complexity. But for survivablity (to survive additional load) to increase, you need to increase the surplus power generation capacity(given fuel is present) by either increasing generation(more bees,less disease) or reducing losses (more insulation, less parasites).
However, increased power generation has its draw backs. e.g. Larger numbers of an animal, tightly confined, increase the probabilty of disease spread. Tightly confined they may not be able to reach fuel.

To understand what is happening to bees we should compare to a baseline of colony size and heat losses. That baseline should be located at the bees original N european habitat and colony and a not 20th century wooden box (note langstroths original idea was for an insulated hive).



And power is not just expressed as heat but also in bee creation capacity and the capacity to create fuel reserves

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Me - I just keep bees in hives and take off some honey.


If I want my brain to hurt I either drink twelve pints of 'wife beater' or bang my head againsy a wall