DNA research on Irish AMM.

Quis Custodiet · May 8, 2018

The results of the DNA research on the Irish population of AMM has been published in the "Journal of Apicultural Research" Vol 57, 2018. Issue 3. It is open source.

B+. · May 8, 2018

Quis Custodiet said:
The results of the DNA research on the Irish population of AMM has been published in the "Journal of Apicultural Research" Vol 57, 2018. Issue 3. It is open source.

To save people time, the direct link is https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00218839.2018.1433949

foghornleghorn · May 8, 2018

Quis Custodiet said:
The results of the DNA research on the Irish population of AMM has been published in the "Journal of Apicultural Research" Vol 57, 2018. Issue 3. It is open source.

Should there not be a potential conflict of interest?
This comes to mind

https://youtu.be/aTL0-RH2LfU

Quis Custodiet · May 8, 2018

Thank you for that B+. I have not at yet had time to peruse the paper, but interestingly they seem to be referring to the "Dark European Honeybee" and not to the "Native Irish Honeybee".

Finman · May 8, 2018

Quis Custodiet said:
Thank you for that B+. I have not at yet had time to peruse the paper, but interestingly they seem to be referring to the "Dark European Honeybee" and not to the "Native Irish Honeybee".

It is the same bug. You cannot have in every village your own bees, because bees do not live according village borders, or according nation borders.

.

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

Quis Custodiet said:
Thank you for that B+. I have not at yet had time to peruse the paper, but interestingly they seem to be referring to the "Dark European Honeybee" and not to the "Native Irish Honeybee".

The nuance is implied in the title, and elucidated somewhat in the second paragraph.

Given the propensity for divergence into different subspecies and races in honey bees, the substantial period of isolation of Irish bees from the rest of mainland Europe could have resulted in the evolution of unique genetic variants.

Probably more intellectually rigorous of you to refrain from superficial observation, until you've at least had a casual look, never mind a perusal.

:welcome:

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

Finman said:
It is the same bug. You cannot have in every village your own bees, because bees do not live according village borders, or according nation borders.

.

Irrelevant categories in this discussion.

foghornleghorn · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Irrelevant categories in this discussion.

They acknowledged in it that if more samples from other populations were tested that the uniquely Irish markers could be found because the Irish sample was a lot larger.
The vast majority of people have no interest in whether or not a bee has certain DNA markers but in how it performs which is likely the exact same as any other amm population

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

foghornleghorn said:
They acknowledged in it that if more samples from other populations were tested that the uniquely Irish markers could be found because the Irish sample was a lot larger.
The vast majority of people have no interest in whether or not a bee has certain DNA markers but in how it performs which is likely the exact same as any other amm population

Respectfully, I suggest that a lot of Irish beekeepers actually do have a 'conservation' perspective, even if it isnt expressed as 'DNA markers' etc.

FIBKA has been clear about that commitment.

Finman · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Respectfully, I suggest that a lot of Irish beekeepers actually do have a 'conservation' perspective, even if it isnt expressed as 'DNA markers' etc.

FIBKA has been clear about that commitment.

We have our own Black Bee project. Genetic backround is so narrow, that we take genes from Sweden and Norway. Our first beehives came from Sweden.

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

deleted

Beefriendly · May 8, 2018

foghornleghorn said:
They acknowledged in it that if more samples from other populations were tested that the uniquely Irish markers could be found because the Irish sample was a lot larger.

They will find "unique" markers in any population of Amms/ Canries etc. Its the genetic card shuffling that occurs within any population. What is fascinating is the high percentages of Amm purity in the samples.
This either represents a picture of the overall population or represents selective sampling as was indicated in previous wing morphometry work where samples only came from GBBG. In this case samples have been taken throughout Ireland so unlikely to be skewed.

What it does suggest is that Amm users and users of other strains can live happily side by side. Which is good news for all, whatever type of bee you wish to keep.

foghornleghorn · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Respectfully, I suggest that a lot of Irish beekeepers actually do have a 'conservation' perspective, even if it isnt expressed as 'DNA markers' etc.

FIBKA has been clear about that commitment.

If that was true they would go out and set up a proper controlled breeding program. That hasn't happened and excuses are made against the idea of it. If amm is to survive and thrive in a pure firm it must be bred so it is a desirable bee to keep.

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

foghornleghorn said:
If that was true they would go out and set up a proper controlled breeding program. That hasn't happened and excuses are made against the idea of it. If amm is to survive and thrive in a pure firm it must be bred so it is a desirable bee to keep.

Arguably, from a conservation perspective, it is desirable precisely because it is amm.

I say that in answer to the highlighted part of your original comment -

The vast majority of people have no interest in whether or not a bee has certain DNA markers but in how it performs

It could possibly be said against your point that the vast majority of people have no interest in how their bees (amm or otherwise) perform, otherwise bee improvement in these islands would not be so far behind eg ze Germans. As we are told.

Action lags far behind aspiration. Nothing new there, I think.

B+. · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Arguably, from a conservation perspective, it is desirable precisely because it is amm.

I say that in answer to the highlighted part of your original comment -

It could possibly be said against your point that the vast majority of people have no interest in how their bees (amm or otherwise) perform, otherwise bee improvement in these islands would not be so far behind eg ze Germans. As we are told.

Action lags far behind aspiration. Nothing new there, I think.

I would suggest that the biggest problem you face is codifying and propagating from authentic material. Otherwise they will always be open to the criticism that their is provenance is unproven.

Finman · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Irrelevant categories in this discussion.

And you are capable say so?

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

Finman said:
And you are capable say so?

Yes, and allow me to help you out here...

village borders - irrelevant
nation borders - irrelevant

glaciers - relevant
Alps - relevant
Pyrenees - relevant
Balkans - relevant

B+. · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Yes, and allow me to help you out here...

village borders - irrelevant
nation borders - irrelevant

glaciers - relevant
Alps - relevant
Pyrenees - relevant
Balkans - relevant

Seas - relevant

Let me pose a question: Is there any way you would accept the right of neighbours to keep whichever bee they chose?

Uncle Betty · May 8, 2018

B+. said:
Seas - relevant

Let me pose a question: Is there any way you would accept the right of neighbours to keep whichever bee they chose?

Factually, I have neighbours who keep the bees they choose.

There's quite a provocative assumption in your phrasing, and I wonder why ?

I'm not a fascist.

Finman · May 8, 2018

Uncle Betty said:
Yes, and allow me to help you out here...

village borders - irrelevant
nation borders - irrelevant

glaciers - relevant
Alps - relevant
Pyrenees - relevant
Balkans - relevant

And Ireland has nothing to do with these. Why Irish Blackbee is same as European Black Bee.

Airplanes have been invented a while ago.
.

DNA research on Irish AMM.

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