How are people responding to the trick thymol question in the Beebase survey

B+. · Apr 28, 2018

boywonder said:
I personally think we should tell them what they need / want to know, and not be so completely paranoid.

Perhaps you didn't see (or care?) that their previous survey was, in fact, a BIBBA survey?
The great strength of the NBU/APHA was their impartiality. They threw that away by acting as the mouthpiece for BIBBA.

TryingToLetThemBee · Apr 28, 2018

boywonder said:
I for one am pleased to answer the questions from the NBU honestly, and am grateful for the fact that we even have a Bee Unit, and that the various agencies of DEFRA are actively engaged in the thematic of honeybee health, and that we can e.g. avail ourselves of the services of the Bee Inspectorate.

Only by answering the surveys can these agencies get a true picture of how beekeepers are managing their colonies, and adapt their own advice and enforcement policies accordingly.

The way I read it, if you fall into the any of the following categories, then you are in breach of your legal obligations:
- Using ‘home-made’ concoctions or other non-licensed medicines as a treatment for any medical condition in a colony
- e.g. using generic Oxalic acid
- e.g. even when using an approved OA treatment, not applying in accordance with instructions (e.g. fumigating repeatedly)
- Not keeping a full Vetinary Medicine Administration Record

I would wager that well over 90% of hobby beekeepers fall into one or more of those categories. Are the Bee Inspectors, the BBKA, and all the other conglomerates of the great-and-the-good aware of this ? Of course; they are not stupid.

Are we all going to hell in a handcart ? No.

I personally think we should tell them what they need / want to know, and not be so completely paranoid.

I agree, without admitting anything in writing. I suspect NBU are knowingly on the side of the angels here. And this is not OA, where the presence of Api-Bioxal does complicate things. I wonder if anyone is working on thymol syrup?

@Swarm, yes, but "they" would need a criminal standard of proof and this would not cover it. Any thymol syrup in my hives is a result of feed preservation that might have beneficial side effects.

Erichalfbee · Apr 28, 2018

TryingToLetThemBee said:
I wonder if anyone is working on thymol syrup.

First thing that crossed my mind

Into the lions den · Apr 28, 2018

Having been on the sharp end of an issue (well publicised...still don't think I did much wrong)the NBU are not the villains in this kind of thing. They are merely the (often reluctant) foot soldiers sent out to do the bidding of other tentacles of the organisation.

The issue is more to do with the VMD, and if THEY get hold of your responses.

Its all a bit 'off' that a substance used without ill effects for many years (ie oxalic acid or thymol) suddenly becomes an enforcement issue. That this only happened when someone paid a large sum to the same body to register a completely unremarkable version of the same thing, and part of the deal, pressured for by someone purporting to represent beekeepers, is enforcement against other formulations. Rather stinks.

If we were in the wonderful UK watching this happen in a third world country we would be wrapping ourselves in our honourable flags and going 'tut tut' at the corruption.

Fritillary · Apr 28, 2018

Walrus · Apr 28, 2018

Into the lions den said:
Its all a bit 'off' that a substance used without ill effects for many years (ie oxalic acid or thymol) suddenly becomes an enforcement issue. That this only happened when someone paid a large sum to the same body to register a completely unremarkable version of the same thing, and part of the deal, pressured for by someone purporting to represent beekeepers, is enforcement against other formulations. Rather stinks.

If we were in the wonderful UK watching this happen in a third world country we would be wrapping ourselves in our honourable flags and going 'tut tut' at the corruption.

Finman · Apr 28, 2018

Into the lions den said:
If we were in the wonderful UK watching this happen in a third world country we would be wrapping ourselves in our honourable flags and going 'tut tut' at the corruption.

In Finland vets and beekeepers are not so stupid that we pay 200 €/kg from oxalic acid to Germany or to Italy.

But some are so stupid that they pay 6€/kg from sugar to Germany.

As you know, normal sugar is poison. Some day we perhaps cannot feed with Lidl sugar to bees. Winter sugar must be colored brown, as do "natural honey producers".

First of all, British law book should order, what smoker stuff you can burn in your smoker. Some legal.

.

boywonder · Apr 28, 2018

B+. said:
They threw that away by acting as the mouthpiece for BIBBA.

... In your opinion.

And, no, I did not care. I completed that survey honestly too, by stating (and explaining) why I (personally) don't give a rat's about any programme to promote AMM characteristics in UK bees. My opinion.

But I do think everybody behind these surveys (whatever their agenda) has the genuine interests of honeybees at the heart of what they do. The point I was making is that honest responses are valuable, and we should not feel cowed into giving any particular response.

B+. · Apr 28, 2018

boywonder said:
... In your opinion.

And, no, I did not care. I completed that survey honestly too, by stating (and explaining) why I (personally) don't give a rat's about any programme to promote AMM characteristics in UK bees. My opinion.

But I do think everybody behind these surveys (whatever their agenda) has the genuine interests of honeybees at the heart of what they do. The point I was making is that honest responses are valuable, and we should not feel cowed into giving any particular response.

I would have thought that was obvious. If someone acts as the mouthpiece of a group with particular interests, they can hardly claim to be impartial.
If someone has an agenda, I think it would be foolish to play into their hands. I did answer honestly though. However, as was indicated earlier, some people "stacked the deck" with multiple responses. Just how reliable is such a survey? What conclusions could be drawn even if they were a representative sample of all beekeepers? I mean, is the survey self-selective in itself (i.e. the questions, particularly the latter ones, were very biased in favour of Amm)?

Poly Hive · Apr 28, 2018

Was it sent out selectively in the first place as I have not been sent one.

PH

Codford · Apr 28, 2018

Same here.

B+. · Apr 28, 2018

Poly Hive said:
Was it sent out selectively in the first place as I have not been sent one.

PH

No. I don't think so.
When I said it might be self-selective, I meant that the questions were phrased in such a way that they favoured Amm and BIBBA. I believe that people who hold similar views would be encouraged to respond, while those who held different views would be discouraged. By soliciting views that claim to represent (all) beekeepers, I believe that survey was flawed and biased.

B+. · Apr 28, 2018

Poly Hive said:
Was it sent out selectively in the first place as I have not been sent one.

PH

It did contain the phrase ". You have been chosen at random to complete the husbandry survey this year" but, who believes that?

For want of a better word · Apr 28, 2018

B+. said:
Perhaps you didn't see (or care?) that their previous survey was, in fact, a BIBBA survey?
The great strength of the NBU/APHA was their impartiality. They threw that away by acting as the mouthpiece for BIBBA.

I do hope you wrote to your MP complaining about this.
We would just love to see the reply of you get one.

B+. · Apr 28, 2018

Cheers said:
I do hope you wrote to your MP complaining about this.
We would just love to see the reply of you get one.

Do you deny that it was a BIBBA survey?

fatshark · Apr 28, 2018

Into the lions den said:
[snip] That this only happened when someone paid a large sum to the same body to register a completely unremarkable version of the same thing, and part of the deal, pressured for by someone purporting to represent beekeepers, is enforcement against other formulations. [snip]

Since when has completely unremarkable meant worse?

B+. · Apr 28, 2018

fatshark said:
Since when has completely unremarkable meant worse?

When you take the price into consideration ;-)

Gilberdyke John · Apr 28, 2018

fatshark said:
Since when has completely unremarkable meant worse?

How about contaminating an original high purity compound with sugar and silica?

Gilberdyke John · Apr 28, 2018

boywonder said:
I for one am pleased to answer the questions from the NBU honestly, and am grateful for the fact that we even have a Bee Unit, and that the various agencies of DEFRA are actively engaged in the thematic of honeybee health, and that we can e.g. avail ourselves of the services of the Bee Inspectorate.

Only by answering the surveys can these agencies get a true picture of how beekeepers are managing their colonies, and adapt their own advice and enforcement policies accordingly.

The way I read it, if you fall into the any of the following categories, then you are in breach of your legal obligations:
- Using ‘home-made’ concoctions or other non-licensed medicines as a treatment for any medical condition in a colony
- e.g. using generic Oxalic acid
- e.g. even when using an approved OA treatment, not applying in accordance with instructions (e.g. fumigating repeatedly)
- Not keeping a full Vetinary Medicine Administration Record

I would wager that well over 90% of hobby beekeepers fall into one or more of those categories. Are the Bee Inspectors, the BBKA, and all the other conglomerates of the great-and-the-good aware of this ? Of course; they are not stupid.

Are we all going to hell in a handcart ? No.

I personally think we should tell them what they need / want to know, and not be so completely paranoid.

I could be wrong but you sound remarkably like Alasdair C from the BBKA FB group

madasafish · Apr 28, 2018

Gilberdyke John said:
I could be wrong but you sound remarkably like Alasdair C from the BBKA FB group

Or sounds like someone who believes the words of politicians.. from "Peace in our Time" Chamberlain, through "The pound in your pocket has not been devalued" Wilson to "I did not read that memo" Rudd.

:hairpull:

How are people responding to the trick thymol question in the Beebase survey

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