Hives dead & dying: what reasons, what to do?

[Erichalfbee]

I discount any poison/insecticide causes as it has been present over 12 months now, not in all hives yet has progressed from hive to hive.

Will read up more on CBPV, but had read about it last year and suspected a few bees but I don't see that 'short film loop oscillation stickiness' I think of as typical in any of the bees, dying or not. If it were not for the huge pile by the door I'd say the fliers and foragers look fine, even the dying can make progress about the pile for a while. They are also not shiny/dark/hairless but look normal.

What I was wondering was who might be interested to look further: university? NBU? researchers?? and how to contact them...
Is it worth making a few sample pouches of frozen bees?

Try what I suggested
You have nothing to lose

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Since last year I believe there may have been some new disease here, or am I plain stupid?

EFB was in the area last year, had the regional inspector visit my 3 hives last summer. No problems found, tiny bit of chalk brood, 15 Qcells in the best hive. At that time I had one hive that had way way more dead bees out front than the other hives, we left it last in case of some disease there but nothing identified.

That one just made it through the winter but dwindled away by late May. Stores and pollen coming in in March and April. I think there had been no queen for some long time, stores in plenty, no sign of starvation, no sign of attempts to create new queens (no cups), a few drones, no wing disease, no Nosema steaks, no verroa seen in this hive since early April. Mood remained fairly calm throughout.

This pattern then moved to the hive next door, start of many dead bees below the front from May on, no verroa since late April, no Queen, no cups, no obvious known disease, no brood, still some stores and pollen arriving early June, I think there might be a very few bees now but colony essentially dead since 15 June. SAMPLE of 40 or so bees sent for N. ceranae examination at 400x under a microscope at local BKA by 3 people. N.c seemed to fit many observations and comments in these forums.
NOT N.c was the answer. (A shame as I might at least have something to try for that, thymolated syrup)

My last hive, which had put on 25-30Kg of honey is now loosing almost 1 litre of dead bees outside the front every day, started around 12 June. Still some training flights but diminishing and I suspect the masses of sealed brood I saw mid June will now be empty space. Mid June same pattern of Q-, no cups, no eggs or larvae, no verroa (since late April I suspect). Plenty of life but doomed!

I have word of some new viruses suspected "around" but nothing I can use or even contribute to finding out more about it would seem.
I have contacted SBI who came last year and they have moved on but made useful comments and pointed me to the new SBI. I sent a summary 2 weeks ago without response to date.

SUGGESTIONS?
I'm off to shovel more dead bees!

This old thread from a few years back might be worth reading. It chronicles a local encounter with cbpv which was initially thought was an instance of spray poisoning.


https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/spray-poisoning.36618

 

[Erichalfbee]

Read the thread that John signposted but DO NOT shake the bees out in an effort to separate the sick from the well. Sick bees lose their sense of direction before they show symptoms of disease and can fly into your other hives.
You will also be left with little huddles of healthy nurse bees slowly perishing in the grass

 

[andrew_r]

One of my hives also had CBPV last year, it started around July time and by September most of the bees were dead. They went into winter with only two frames of brood in a 14x12 brood box, so I didn't expect them to survive the winter. I fed them throughout winter and hoped for the best, but expected the worst.

Upon first inspection in April this year, I was surprised to see that the colony was wall to wall with brood, and by June they had filled 4 supers. They are now my strongest colony and look really healthy.

If it is CBPV, give them a chance, they may surprise you.

Andrew.

 

[Gilberdyke John]

Read the thread that John signposted but DO NOT shake the bees out in an effort to separate the sick from the well. Sick bees lose their sense of direction before they show symptoms of disease and can fly into your other hives.
You will also be left with little huddles of healthy nurse bees slowly perishing in the grass

Perhaps worth noting the problem colony in the saga was in isolation with no other (known) colonies within a couple of miles

 

[cwinte]

There's more research being done on CBPV that seems to be identifying different strains of the virus. Some of which are more virulent and display classic symptoms while other strains don't. I'll see if I can find a contact. But you should definitely take a sample from the dying bees and freeze them. So they could be used.

That would be very useful!!
Many thanks, from me and those bees who have fallen...

 

[cwinte]

That's a new one on me - and to the NBU I should think

The phrase I received was more or less "some mention at BKA central of new viruses..."...

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

The phrase I received was more or less "some mention at BKA central of new viruses..."...

Of course, they would know wouldn't they

 

[cwinte]

SBI came round today, very helpful and informative. He thinks CBPV and found quite a few black shiny bees, and there are some of those in the mound of dead now (but some have been there 10 days...).
Anyway there was some good news, I had seen pollen going in today and the colony is still strong with 8 frames of brood, BIAS and 35Kg of honey despite the 3 litres of dead bees last week.
Only 2 fun cups, no other swarm sign and only very few drones. No drone brood area noticed.
That is where my previous best hive was at last year, also brood & half (although that had loads of queen cells and drones) - but by May this year it was dwindled and gone.
So I feel a need to act.

He suggests a shake out of most of the bees at the other end of garden by the house 60 yards away so I loose the heaviest virus load (and reduce R!) might help. Ideally I find the queen and hold her apart but neither of us saw Q in the inspection so I doubt that I'll see her next time either.
I suggested a half-way house of shaking out the shallow and supers and some of the side deeps, maybe repeating it after a week or two. This keeps a nice solid brood base untouched and does not risk Q or require finding her. (I just have to take care she is not in the shallow but there're only 4 broody frames to check and if I let light in and open from above I'm pretty sure Q will run away below.)

My question areas:

• Thoughts one how much I need to worry about virus on the frames and box? I assume that is minor compared to the amount bees with largest symptoms...
• Is CBPV fairly randomly spread through a colony or more in some (age)group, and should this change my plan?
• When best to take some of the honey (during the split and put in supers of 50% new frames? Maybe more honey in the new colony with more work to do and some time before laying starts?)
• Can I also manage to do a split at the same time? How?
• How do I judge the benefit and risks, especially one strong vs 2 lesser colonies for prospects next year? (There do not seem to be many swarms on offer around!)
• What have I not considered?
• Better plans?

Thanks in advance... Those that said CBPV were on the money!

 

[cwinte]

Perhaps worth noting the problem colony in the saga was in isolation with no other (known) colonies within a couple of miles

Re the suggestion to NOT shake them out... I only have the one hive, but there will be others within a mile I guess.
My part shake-out plan would not leave nurse bees in grass.
What might be the best distance to go from hive to maximise returns while keeping most of the worst cases out?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Read this don’t shake out your SBI is wrong
https://beekeepingforum.co.uk/threads/a-way-to-combat-cbpv.51048/

 

[Erichalfbee]

Once you understand how CBPV spreads it makes sense

 

[Wilco]

Again the university or veterinary bee specialist might be able and interested?

Veterinary bee specialist = National Bee Unit.

Not private vets- just a heads up: There's no such thing as a bee specialist vet as 'specialist' is a protected title in the vet world and there is no such qualification. There is a British Bee Veterinary Association but they're more vets who like the idea of bees (a few are also beekeepers).

I'd strongly recommend trusting the experience of a number of those posting above.

Good luck, it's heartbreaking to see piles of dead any dying bees.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

He suggests a shake out of most of the bees at the other end of garden by the house 60 yards away so I loose the heaviest virus load (and reduce R!) might help.

The man's a fool then and doesn't even pay heed to what senior RBI's and the officer in charge of the NBU healthy bees plan say.

 

[user 819]

The floor less colony route is the logical route to take, no undertaking needed by the bees to transmit the infection as mentioned by JBM and laid out in the thread Danin has linked to in #31.

 

[cwinte]

Thanks all, about to go bottomless...