Winter stores - leave on super?

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if I used insulation in the roof, it would block off the air=flow, thereby increasing possible condensation issues. apparently, damp kills more colonies than cold.
 
OMF and an opening in the crown board = chimney effect, not good.
 
One of the huge improvements in recent times in wintering has been the combination of OMF and top insulation.

This was trialled as long ago (believe it or not) as 30 years in Scotland.

You are losing serious heat there Tony.

PH
 
FWIW I put an empty super on my colonies and put on 2/3ds of a block of fondant. Covered that in plastic, and this year I am going to fill the space with bubble wrap.

Of course a CB on top, with no feed holes, and the poly roof on top of that.

PH
 
Dartington last winter. 11 frames, no super, strong colony. Bees used all the stores on one side and left the other half untouched. Put down to them staying on the warmer side of the hive. Biggest aggravation was clearing those stores in spring!

Second Dartington. 8 or 9 brood frames, super above. Loads of stores left in the spring.

Jumbo Nationals. All left with a completely full brood box. None supered.

None had any top ventilation as they are all fitted with OMFs (most of which remained fully open all winter) a couple were part-closed in the really cold spell.

Bees have happily over-wintered, with no condensation problems for the past seven years, with OMFs. They likely use a little more stores if left completely open (simple energy balance) but survive without too much difficulty.

All my hives will have some form of extra winter clothing, ranging from a simple expanded polystyrene sheet over the crownboard, to 50mm sheets on the sides (and insulated dividers at each end of the brood nest of the Dartingtons). Costs little and emulates the conditions found in polyhives. Brooding starts earlier and the nest is wall-to-wall if insulation is good. Less energy is expended keeping the cluster/nest warm, so less stores consumed.

Obviously if one has, say, a couple hundred hives, the approach may be different as there is much greater scope to unite colonies in the spring, to maximise honey production, so time and expenditure on individual colonies may less in those examples.

Everyone will have a different set of ideas and mine is undoubtedly different from the majority of beeks out there. My simplistic view of the whole thing - honey is a winter fuel.

Regards, RAB
 
Are WBCs already insulated adaquately? Or would anyone recommend putting further insulating layers in?
 
We overwintered two last year. Both were July nucs, so they were fair sized colonies going into winter, not huge.

Both had standard national broods, both had one fully loaded super. The queen excluder was taken out as part of the final winter prep. Both got through a hard winter very well - when we first inspected properly, they didn't have a lot of stores, but they had been building nicely up to that point, so they could have got through the stores in the few weeks before we inspected. Both had a small block of fondant applied in late Jan (and topped up regularly) above the crownboard in a small eke.

OMF, one had an insulated roof, one didn't, no obvious difference. I'm going to use celotex this year - I used high density loft insulation, and the bees ate it.

Downsides of leaving a super on: brood in the super, and drones stuck in the super when the QX went back on.

Upsides: they had enough to eat.

This year, the standard broods will get a super, and the 14x12s will not.
 
Here comes one of my famous daft questions......are you ready?

Can't you put something round the hive, like a quilt? But something waterproof like a lagging for a boiler. Or would that not make much difference?
 
I think if the hive can't 'breathe' because of too much insulation condensation appears, and that (by the book) can kill bees quicker than just about anything? Think that's right...
 
Hi kazmcc,
Don't become all wrapped up regarding insulation your hives for winter. If you have an OMF then something on top just under the roof will suffice, solid floor then again a quilt (if available) or some form of poly will do but remember if solid floor then ventilation must be thought about.

Most of all you arewith a load of happy beekeepers who on this site try to help where we can.

Mo
 
wow, that's a lot of inputs, great, so here's mine and why, I leave the 14x12 as they are but some get light by spring and need feeding, I found that if I wintered on a standard National single brood, they pretty much always run out of stores and needed feeding well before spring so now I leave a super on each over winter no QX, I do not winter feed non stop until they stop taking the feed down because I find they also fill all the cells in the brood box and I find the queen has nowhere to lay hence less bees going into winter, this I found was a major problem for me with single Nationals. I try to estimate the weight of the stores and feed accordingly, though I always feed more than they may need.

I run all my hives with insulated roofs and OMF which I leave open all winter exc. for the nucs.

All The Best. Enzo
 
Come on you lot!

I'm all for being prepared (though I confess I was drummed out of the Scouts - but that's another matter). But it is only mid-July. Let's have a week or two longer before we start worrying about the winter!
 
Come on you lot!

I'm all for being prepared (though I confess I was drummed out of the Scouts - but that's another matter). But it is only mid-July. Let's have a week or two longer before we start worrying about the winter!

you mean you ain't planning x-mas already!! LOL
 
The answer from The Man

There was a similar thread a while back I believe, which linked to something on Dave Cushman's site (you didn't think I meant me did you?) which seemed very logical. The biggest danger is condensation. If you have insulation in the roof, you get a decent convection current going. Warm air rises from the cluster in the centre of the box, then falls at the sides where it is cooler. If you have OMF, you then get a good exchange at the bottom where the air can lose moisture without losing too much heat. If you get a little condensation at the sides it's not the end of the world as it is away from the cluster. If you insulate the sides too well then you wont get the convection current. If you have ventilation at the top then yes, you get a chimney effect- can be OK if regulated perfectly, but if overdone can lose more heat than the bees can produce.
 
One thing to watch out for with fondant is how hot it gets.

It's good over an open hole in the crownboard, if there's no insulation above it. Last year I had open hole in the crownboard with block of fondant over it, then loads of wood shavings, then a layer of loft insulation board stuff, then the roof. This insulation meant the fondant was effectively raised to the cluster temperature (it was on the bees' side of the big chunk of insulation) and so it got hot and dripped through onto the bees.

I think they had other issues too, but this probably contributed to their demise.

Fondant should be kept cool if you want it to stay solid.

FG
 
Box full of bees

I'd been wondering about leaving a super on for stores, and this thread's been really useful. Another aspect occurs to me- I have 3 supers on, and the hive seems pretty well stuffed with bees. When I clear the supers/ take them off for extracting, will they really all fit in the (national standard) brood box, or should I work it in 2 stages so they've always got one super on, just to fit all the bees in?

Also- how will I know when to take off? No HB in my area, mostly working lime at the moment.
 

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