Winter insulation?

[Eyeman]

The colder the hive, the more food they will consume needed for the energy to keep warm. Hence insulation. It really is a stupidly simple concept.

The bottom line for me is:
1. Getting the colony to reduce or stop brood production so that oxalic acid will be most effective. Keeping them cold seems to be the way forward. So I don't use insulation until after the oxalic acid dribble (Around x-mas day).
2. What external temperature range results in the minimum consumption of stores (minimum metabolic rate of bees). From my reading around the subject this seems to be 5-10 degrees C.
3. After oxalic acid treatment insulation goes on to help maintain that 5-10 degrees C temperature (Around Jan 1st).
4. To encourage early colony development I close off the OMF when pollen in abundant and coming into the hives (around Feb). From now on the amount of stores needs to be kept under close check.

This seems to work for me.
Alec

 

[derekm]

The bottom line for me is:
1. Getting the colony to reduce or stop brood production so that oxalic acid will be most effective. Keeping them cold seems to be the way forward. So I don't use insulation until after the oxalic acid dribble (Around x-mas day).
2. What external temperature range results in the minimum consumption of stores (minimum metabolic rate of bees). From my reading around the subject this seems to be 5-10 degrees C.
3. After oxalic acid treatment insulation goes on to help maintain that 5-10 degrees C temperature (Around Jan 1st).
4. To encourage early colony development I close off the OMF when pollen in abundant and coming into the hives (around Feb). From now on the amount of stores needs to be kept under close check.

This seems to work for me.
Alec

you need to do a lot more reading.

Item 1 Doesnt have any foundation in science that keeping them cold causes them to stop brooding as bees insist in starting brooding in the coldest part of the year.
Item 2 Those temperatures are only valid for bees NOT in a hive
items 3 Bees dont regulate to temperatures in the range 5 to 10C . I think you need to either reconsider your phrasing or do more study what the interaction of the heat flow from the bees and the insulation. As putting insulation on isnt going to do anything like what you appear to be seeking to achieve,

 

[Eyeman]

you need to do a lot more reading.

I thought I would generate a bit of controversy!
There has always been an abundance of "armchair" beekeepers on this site.
Seem to rely on what others say without seeing how the bees behave.
Sorry guys but all bees are not all alike so there is never going to a one solution fixes all.
So there is the "I don't use insulation camp" and The "I use insulation camp".
Anyone wants to join my camp "Selective use of insulation"
Alec

 

[Ely]

There have also always been an abundance of beekeepers on this site unwilling to learn anything new and understand scientific fact. They are over confident in their methods just because 'the worst hasn't happened, so it must be the right way'. Not taking into account there are much better ways for the bees, not the beekeeper.

 

[derekm]

I thought I would generate a bit of controversy!
There has always been an abundance of "armchair" beekeepers on this site.
Seem to rely on what others say without seeing how the bees behave.
Sorry guys but all bees are not all alike so there is never going to a one solution fixes all.
So there is the "I don't use insulation camp" and The "I use insulation camp".
Anyone wants to join my camp "Selective use of insulation"
Alec

So this was just a Trolling attempt.

I decline your invitation to join. I prefer my


"Follow the facts" camp


with its subgroups

• "Honeybees are in this universe"
• "bees obey thermo dynamics "
• "keeping bees for 40 years doesnt bend space and time"
• "A Statement on Animal behavior without statistical significance is conjecture"

p.s.
" all bees are not all alike so there is never going to a one solution fixes all." is not very original as a rhetorical evasion ina discourse of logic

 

[madasafish]

The bottom line for me is:
1. Getting the colony to reduce or stop brood production so that oxalic acid will be most effective. Keeping them cold seems to be the way forward. So I don't use insulation until after the oxalic acid dribble (Around x-mas day).
2. What external temperature range results in the minimum consumption of stores (minimum metabolic rate of bees). From my reading around the subject this seems to be 5-10 degrees C.
3. After oxalic acid treatment insulation goes on to help maintain that 5-10 degrees C temperature (Around Jan 1st).
4. To encourage early colony development I close off the OMF when pollen in abundant and coming into the hives (around Feb). From now on the amount of stores needs to be kept under close check.

This seems to work for me.
Alec

So what is your set up to measure temperature? Where do you measure temperature? In the top or bottom? Or the middle?
What are the peaks and troughs?

Since you quote temperatures I assume you have years of data comparing insulated and uninsulated hives and colony build up figures .. and colony internal pictures showing brood levels by month?

I'd love to see your data which enabled you to reach your conclusions. It will silence the pro insulators once and for all.

If you don't have it, then I apologise but everything you say has got to be BS.

 

[Eyeman]

There have also always been an abundance of beekeepers on this site unwilling to learn anything new and understand scientific fact.

I think that is a bit harsh!
Here is a good definition of scientific fact:
"In science, an observation that has been repeatedly confirmed and for all practical purposes is accepted as “true.” Truth in science, however, is never final and what is accepted as a fact today may be modified or even discarded tomorrow."

There is a world of a difference between science relating to the basic laws of XYZ and then applying it to honey bees.
Surely you know that even a "published peer reviewed scientific paper" may still need to be confirmed in field conditions. Those papers presenting the results of field condition trials are very likely to involve different climatic and environmental not to mention different strains of bees to what you and the rest of us have.
It seem far from sensible to continue using some "scientifically proven" method if your records show it not working on your bees!
Alec

 

[Ely]

I'm unsure how insulating your hive to prevent heat loss is dependent on the strain of bee you keep. I also don't understand the logic of forcing your bees to cluster for sake of treatment. I'd rather treat in Autumn if they need it and if there was no brood break because they were in a comfortable insulated hive then so be it. The more brood the better because they will be stronger come spring.

 

[Eyeman]

So what is your set up to measure temperature? Where do you measure temperature? In the top or bottom? Or the middle?
What are the peaks and troughs?

Never said I measure temperature.
Sorry but many of you seem to have lost sight of the fact that practical beekeeping for most involves:
1. Maintaining Healthy bees
2. Productive bees
....... plus additional traits.
These two traits aren't too hard to measure without a thermometer.

I not trying to mock the wealth of information that has landed on our doors which has allows us to reinforce or change our management practices. Just try not to forget the bottom line.
Alec

 

[Eyeman]

I also don't understand the logic of forcing your bees to cluster for sake of treatment

My understanding is:
With warm winters the queen may still be laying so oxalic acid treatment which works best when there is a brood break is less effective. So if you artificially keep the hive warm with insulation isn't that similar to a warm winter?

My use of insulation and closing off the OMF is aimed at minimal use of winter stores, maximal oxalic acid mite reduction and spring build up to coincide with our local pollen.

My practice is based on the analysis of hive records going back 8 years. This current strategy has been in use for the past 3 years and has helped keep my bees healthy and productive.
Bottom line for me is healthy and productive bees.
I'm happy to accept there are other ways to keep healthy bees and if you method works then I wont mock it.

Alec

 

[derekm]

My understanding is:
With warm winters the queen may still be laying so oxalic acid treatment which works best when there is a brood break is less effective. So if you artificially keep the hive warm with insulation isn't that similar to a warm winter?

....
Alec

logical fallacy

Warm winter => queen laying
Warm winter => warmer nest
fallacy warmer nest => queen laying

A=>B, A=>C.
fallacy C=> B

 

[itma]

I thought I would generate a bit of controversy!

As good a reason as any for going on an Ignore list.

 

[BeeJayBee]

There have also always been an abundance of beekeepers [...] unwilling to learn anything new and understand scientific fact.

It's often a case of not being able to "teach and old dog new tricks", they're stuck in their ways and aren't able to accept new ideas.

A prime example are some of those who have been at Derek's talks, have listened to the science, have seen how well the information has been received by others, yet dismiss it all and still insist on using matchsticks to raise the crownboard during winter - because that's the way they've always done it.

On the other hand there are those why try what Derek suggests - and six months on admit that they will keep using insulation, and leave it on throughout the year, because it works better for them and their bees than doing things the old way.

 

[oliver90owner]

Yes, BJ. The old, old saying is so true. You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make it drink. Maybe replace 'horse' with 'dinosaur beekeeper'?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Can I extrapolate? Winter to summer; having made a PIR jacket for three wooden hives. Should I leave the insulation on all year? And what about supers? Can I leave these I insulated. Might be a very impressive recticel box

 

[derekm]

Can I extrapolate? Winter to summer; having made a PIR jacket for three wooden hives. Should I leave the insulation on all year? And what about supers? Can I leave these I insulated. Might be a very impressive recticel box

All year All fully insulated.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Right.
I have some thinking to do re adding supers

 

[itma]

Right.
I have some thinking to do re adding supers

Poly gets you much of the benefit with minimal fuss …

 

[Erichalfbee]

Poly gets you much of the benefit with minimal fuss …

I know...I have a Paynes, a Swienty and modified MBs
The wooden ones have become somewhat of a challenge.

 

[derekm]

Poly gets you much of the benefit with minimal fuss …

about half ... in Watts, but in Bees? you'll have to ask them.