Winter insulation?

[sharonh]

Hi everyone,
Weather is starting to change, so I want to get prepared.

Both my colonies are fed.
I never used Kingspan before, but have got 100 mm & 50 mm.

My first colony is in a national over a super.
Do I cut a square to fit inside an eke, above the crown board or just put it sitting on the crown board with roof over ?

My second colony is in a poly nuc, which has a clear film crown board.
I have an eke for this also.

If fondant is needed at any stage, surely this will rise the insulation, so what way is the best way to combat that.

Lastly, when does everyone plan to install insulation?
Do you wait until temp is at a certain level before doing so ?

Thanks in advance.
Sharon

 

[Aggravated]

I did this last year by putting a square of Kingspan board (50mm I think), with a hole in the middle above the crown board hole. I kept the piece I cut out, and when I needed to feed the bees, I removed the section, put in the feed, and placed the cut out on top.

 

[Aggravated]

There is also a suggestion from a friend of mine that too much insulation makes the bees less likely to huddle together, and can get through more stores, just a thought

 

[pargyle]

There is also a suggestion from a friend of mine that too much insulation makes the bees less likely to huddle together, and can get through more stores, just a thought

Hmmm ... that'll provoke a bit of debate. Ideal temperature for the cluster according to most sources is 10 degrees ... that meets the balance between an economic cluster and mobility (which they still need).

I've got a cheapo digital thermometer and humidity sensor on my hive with a view to keeping an eye on the temperature (mainly) at the top of the hive. They are not clustered yet and seem to be keeping the temperature, generally, at about 5 degrees above the external air temperature - although it shot up to 27.7 degrees last night which I put down to the work load on processing the glut of pollen coming in ... shows what they are capable of though ! DerekM will be along shortly I would imagine !

 

[Luminos]

I do the same as Aggravated

 

[derekm]

There is also a suggestion from a friend of mine that too much insulation makes the bees less likely to huddle together, and can get through more stores, just a thought

This suggestion is incorrect. It stems from a logical fallacy from a misinterpretation of some research.

 

[derekm]

Hmmm ... that'll provoke a bit of debate. Ideal temperature for the cluster according to most sources is 10 degrees ... that meets the balance between an economic cluster and mobility ... shows what they are capable of though ! DerekM will be along shortly I would imagine !

here i am, that ideal temperature is based on research that forces a fixed temperature on the bees, and as such is pretty meaningless in an insulated environment.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

This suggestion is incorrect. It stems from a logical fallacy from a misinterpretation of some research.

Derek: I'm sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself, but do you have links to the research on this issue?

 

[derekm]

Derek: I'm sorry if I'm making you repeat yourself, but do you have links to the research on this issue?

unfortunately you have to pay to get these:
Read the fine print on the methods. The problem is either people dont read the whole paper or don't understand the implications. The research in them is meticulous but needs to be understood properly.
This the heat produced by bee colonies forced to be at a set temperature. It does not attempt to show heat output (stores consumption)when bees are placed in an environment they have the potential to control partially.

Allometric relations, metabolism and heart conductance in clusters of honey bees at cool temperatures

Edward E. Southwick

METABOLIC ENERGY OF INTACT HONEY BEE COLONIES*
EDWAKD E. SOUTHWICK


Then add

the-thermology-of-wintering-honey-bee-colonies

This is a flawed piece of research as it does not state the levels of insulation used in its packed hives. However they use "All hives used for this study were three hive bodies high. The bodies were 20 inches square and 6-5/8 inches deep. There was a 1-inch entrance hole in the center body and a 3- by 3/8-inch entrance at the bottom board. The hives all faced south, and the combs were numbered from west to east."

in other words thin wood with holes.

Thus the conclusion "(17) Honey bees make no attempt to maintain the temperature in the domicile outside the winter cluster" is meaningless as it was thermally impossible for the bees with their limited heat output to attempt to do so.

from the "Packed Colonies. – The mean temperature outside the cluster in packed colonies was 7º F. higher than in the check colonies." we can estimate the packing thermal conductance at >5W/C. which implies it was very poor indeed (equivalent to about 6mm of polystyrene)

 

[pargyle]

here i am, that ideal temperature is based on research that forces a fixed temperature on the bees, and as such is pretty meaningless in an insulated environment.

OK ... so, I'm thinking that my well insulated hive is going to yield a winter colony temperature (probably) above 10 degrees ... indeed, I have a potential hive heating arrangement that could even engineer a colony temperature at a higher level (if I want).

So .. are you saying that the bees would prefer a higher or lower cluster temperature than 10 degrees or, indeed, has your research, to date, indicated that they will maintain a higher or lower temperature in a well insulated hive over winter ?

 

[Finman]

So .. are you saying that the bees would prefer a higher or lower cluster temperature than 10 degrees or,?

That 10C is nearly their choma temperature.

Without brood bee cluster has about 23C temp inside the cluster.

Note that cluster has slices between combs.

In February colony starts to rear some brood and it rises its core temp.

http://jeb.biologists.org/content/206/2/353.full.pdf

.



?

indeed, has your research, to date, indicated that they will maintain a higher or lower temperature in a well insulated hive over winter ?

Winter temperatures are well documented in reseaches which you find from internet.
Ordinary beekeepers may write what ever. Look for university papers.

- in well insulated hive heat loss is smaller than in poor insulated.
Bees have their thermoste in cluster.

- in poor insulated box (cold house ) bees must work more to produce heat.

- not only poor isulation but empty space takes much heat

- bees consume more in cold hive than in warm hive....even if many says controversy

- cold does not kill bees but moisture kills ....= pure nonsense.
Treat the hive so that neither will happen.

 

[derekm]

OK ... so, I'm thinking that my well insulated hive is going to yield a winter colony temperature (probably) above 10 degrees ... indeed, I have a potential hive heating arrangement that could even engineer a colony temperature at a higher level (if I want).

So .. are you saying that the bees would prefer a higher or lower cluster temperature than 10 degrees or, indeed, has your research, to date, indicated that they will maintain a higher or lower temperature in a well insulated hive over winter ?

The temperature inside a cluster isnt going to change, the boundaries of the cluster, and the energy consumed will change

I wouldnt heat a colony, they come with a heater, and thermostat/s, just insulate sufficently that the output of this heater can produce the bees (not the beekeepers) desired temperature/cluster boundaries/heat output

 

[rogerb]

Not exactly pure nonsense, purity is such a rare thing (especially in beekeepers), it should perhaps say “cold does not kill bees but moisture kills, most often in most parts of the UK”.

In that most UK keepers are in a climate where it never really gets cold, but damp is not a good thing for bees wherever you are.

Ps it does get moderately chilly in the hills of Aberdeenshire and cold does kill bees here so keeping out drafts as well as damp is important.

 

[pargyle]

That 10C is nearly their choma temperature.

Without brood bee cluster has about 23C temp inside the cluster.

Note that cluster has slices between combs.

In February colony starts to rear some brood and it rises its core temp.



?

Winter temperatures are well documented in reseaches which you find from internet.

- in well insulated hive heat loss is smaller than in poor insulated.
Bees have their thermoste in cluster.

- in poor insulated box (cold house) bees must work more to produce heat.

- not only isulation but epty space takes much heat

- bees consume more in cold hive than in warm hive....evebn if many says controversy

- cold does not kill bees but moisture kills ....= pure nonsense.
Treat the hive so that neither will happen.

Thanks Finman,

Looks like I might be on the right track with what I've been doing then ? No spare space, what space there is, outside of dummy boards, filled with insulation, OMF, hive body sealed, 100mm insulation on the top, crown boards sealed to hive body with tape = Warm and dry ...

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

It's clear this is a really complex issue and we are to some extent "doing the science" so I don't think anyone has "the truth".

Some may remember this related thread from May http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=22841

 

[derekm]

...
- not only isulation but epty space takes much heat

one small point its cold surface area that takes the heat, the empty space just provides a convection path.
So more accurately "block off the air ways that can convect air to surfaces that can conduct to the outside".

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

"doing the science" because as derekm points out, all the research I have seen online assumes a cluster. It is obvious that a well-insulated cluster uses less energy. But if the insulation means they break cluster, then you are comparing an uninsulated cluster with an insulated active colony. Finman, if you have links to research that explores that aspect, please share.

 

[Finman]

"doing the science" because as derekm points out, all the research I have seen online assumes a cluster. It is obvious that a well-insulated cluster uses less energy. But if the insulation means they break cluster, then you are comparing an uninsulated cluster with an insulated active colony. Finman, if you have links to research that explores that aspect, please share.

Holy ship. YOu can find them from internet what you want.

If 1-hive owner starts tio make "science", I am out.

Bees have cluster if they need it, but it its warm enough, they spread the cluster. Yuo cannot help them. They do what they do.

What you can do is stay out of hive during their winter rest and don't disturbe them or feed them or don't give Cristmas evening dinners.



"But if the insulation means they break cluster, then you are comparing an uninsulated cluster with an insulated active colony."

NO, it does not go that way at all.


"doing the science" because as derekm points out, all the research I have seen online assumes a cluster"

- winter cluster is winter cluster. That is bees style to save energy and stay alive. With cluster they minimize the food consumption.

If you disturb winter cluster, its temps will be 42C after 1/2 hours.

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.

 

[brianmc]

Since this thread has Derekm's attention...

With regard to "easy wins"... Insulating the top of the hive (crown board) seems to offer the most benefit with the simplest interventions for someone with wooden national hives.

I've bought 50mm Kingspan to provide insulated "crown boards" to my hives and I'm trying to come up with a robust solution without reducing the benefits of the insulation too much.

The simplest solution is to use a 460mm square slab of kingspan instead of a crown board but that won't be robust around the edges. So I would like to frame it.

After that I am worried about the silver paper surfaces and how fragile they are. I can't scrape them off with the hive tool. Will the bees eventually chew through them? A skin of plywood would act as a cold bridge I guess but is it significant? I'm considering this a permanent replacement for normal crown boards.

View attachment 8949

Some advice would be great if you can. While I see the thermal benefits of a fully insulated outer cover, it would be inconvenient to work with compared to replacing the crown board with something like the above.

Thanks!

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

Holy ship. YOu can find them from internet what you want.

Indeed. Here is a piece based on a mathematical model that suggests that the cluster shape oscillates. A hokey-cokey cluster. http://www2.math.uu.se/~david/web/SumpterBroomhead00.pdf It's not a stable heat source, and whether it even exists is a function of its environment. What I CANNOT find, and am asking for your help, is a piece that applies that fact to insulated v non-insulated hives in the UK.