Winter insulation?

[Ely]

Why even argue against insulating a hive when it can only be beneficial?

 

[REDWOOD]

You can even wrap your hives in tar paper, seems to work for hives in colder winters than ours.
Brother Adam never insulated his hives and found that insulation slowed down spring growth of a colony.
Just two different approaches

 

[Hivemaker.]

Brother Adam never insulated his hives

Yes he did... and i have the insulation he used, thick slabs of cork.

 

[user 6228]

Its not a function of temperature but Beek practice. Tar paper gives shelter which is all that is left, If you insist on having top vents, which is what they do in North America

 

[BeeJayBee]

Consistent, draught free? I can show you umpteen photos of bees that have set up home in chimney pots...mostly sealed at the bottom. This is still sub optimal conditions. I cannot comment on their perennial survival, because nobody monitors them there.

Chimneys tend to be ventilated from inside the house. Warm air rises up through the chimney. There may be downdraughts, but more often than not the inside of a chimney is warmer than outside temperatures. There have been suggestions that soot and sulphur in old chimneys might have an adverse effect on varroa.

 

[carrodale]

Funnily enough, I knew of a wild colony which settled in an old stone wall - five yards from a tree with a hollowed out trunk just above head height - still no bees in there.

a stone wall is likely to have a large thermal mass meaning that once it is up to temperature it will cool down slowly and if its in the sun it will heat up in the winter sun. clever bees acting like bats.

personally i like the ideas behind using kingspan for insulating hives, far better than the carpet tile that i was recommended.

 

[Finman]

a stone wall .....if its in the sun it will heat up in the winter sun.

.

Ohoh! You must have warm cottages in Uk during winter. Yeah... Winter sun heats everything except weather.

 

[oliver90owner]

What many, who think bees colonise unlikely spaces by choice, are just quoting position with absolutely no consideration of a natural nest. It has no top ventilation! None at all! The bees seal the top for the very reason of thermal retention. These people are the non-thinkers amongst us. They spout cherry-picked facts but use them out of context.

No feral colony makes a nest where drafts can funnel up through their nest. They would not survive and remain in the gene pool. What they actually do is build comb in a way that retains heat, often with a crossed lattice labyrinth in a curved shape. Compare this to the framed hive where the specific aim of the beekeeper is the convenience of removing any one of the frames by using the traits of the honeybee in conforming to bee space.

For the unthinking, that is a far cry from a natural comb, even built in a chimney, where any draught would be directed around the combs, not through them! Yes open at the bottom, closed off at the top and attached to one side, not with airflow all around. Think about if before spouting about up-draughts, please! Bees are more clever than some would have you think (or not as the case may be).

Same simple thought process (for the thinkers among us) with colonies in stone caverns. No draughts, sealed labyrinths, insulating combs adjacent to the stone. Simple?

Get this staight - a 'convenient-for-the-beekeeper', framed hive is not the natural choice for nest shape or form for the bee; bee space has been exploited by the beekeeper. Then the unthinking beek further adds gaping top ventilation, make the sides of the hive as thin as possible (beekeeper convenience again!), etc, etc.

Every argument above is a SIMPLE one, nothing complicated. Beekeeping is SIMPLE when
one actually THINKS about it. About time some started thinking, and giving something back to the bees instead of exploiting them to the extreme. Insulation is one small luxury for framed hives of bees and lack of gaping holes at the top helps too - they make their survival easier. They deserve it, considering the way they are being treated by some.

I eagerly await any responses which can refute the above. Don't suppose, for a moment , there will be any. Just the continued dinosaur arguments that bees can survive in difficult situations, so it is perfectly OK to replicate those meagre conditions for their colonies - because they don't actually die often (yeah, just the once, so not often).

 

[Finman]

.
Beeks should understand that most of natural colonies die during first winter. They shoose a wrong nest place.
When a colony makes normally 2 swarms per year, in autumn there will be 3 hives instead of 1 spring hive. 200% more every year. It is enormous amount after 10 years. But dead rate is huge because wild colonies are almost same year after year.

Some say that bees are vanishing, but most say that wild colonies does not die in freedom.

 

[madasafish]

I agree and it's been colder, but we don't seem to get that for weeks on end every year, do we?

In the 2011 winter we had temperatures below -10C for about 4 weeks on end. It killed a 30 years old clematis -and many of our perennial plants are now only fully recovered. Many condensing boilers failed due to freezing of condensate in the outlet pipes (poorly located and uninsulated). I had a 2 meter deep pile of compost in the open garden which was frozen inside a month after the temperature rose about 0C.. (the benefits of insulation!)..


And of course, in winter we can often see sub zero temperatures at night rising just above 0C in the day - meaning what is frozen remains so for weeks...


This autumn , last night was the first when the greenhouse thermometer has registered sub zero overnight - -0.25C,,,

 

[user 6228]

What many, who think bees colonise unlikely spaces by choice, are just quoting position with absolutely no consideration of a natural nest. It has no top ventilation! None at all! The bees seal the top for the very reason of thermal retention. These people are the non-thinkers amongst us. They spout cherry-picked facts but use them out of context.

No feral colony makes a nest where drafts can funnel up through their nest. They would not survive and remain in the gene pool. What they actually do is build comb in a way that retains heat, often with a crossed lattice labyrinth in a curved shape. Compare this to the framed hive where the specific aim of the beekeeper is the convenience of removing any one of the frames by using the traits of the honeybee in conforming to bee space.

For the unthinking, that is a far cry from a natural comb, even built in a chimney, where any draught would be directed around the combs, not through them! Yes open at the bottom, closed off at the top and attached to one side, not with airflow all around. Think about if before spouting about up-draughts, please! Bees are more clever than some would have you think (or not as the case may be).

Same simple thought process (for the thinkers among us) with colonies in stone caverns. No draughts, sealed labyrinths, insulating combs adjacent to the stone. Simple?

Get this staight - a 'convenient-for-the-beekeeper', framed hive is not the natural choice for nest shape or form for the bee; bee space has been exploited by the beekeeper. Then the unthinking beek further adds gaping top ventilation, make the sides of the hive as thin as possible (beekeeper convenience again!), etc, etc.

Every argument above is a SIMPLE one, nothing complicated. Beekeeping is SIMPLE when
one actually THINKS about it. About time some started thinking, and giving something back to the bees instead of exploiting them to the extreme. Insulation is one small luxury for framed hives of bees and lack of gaping holes at the top helps too - they make their survival easier. They deserve it, considering the way they are being treated by some.

I eagerly await any responses which can refute the above. Don't suppose, for a moment , there will be any. Just the continued dinosaur arguments that bees can survive in difficult situations, so it is perfectly OK to replicate those meagre conditions for their colonies - because they don't actually die often (yeah, just the once, so not often).

It being RAB, I must disagree with him , on this word "luxury" , but on reflection I think he used it ironically, in the sense of a tent is a "luxury" compared to a plastic bivouac bag when stuck up a welsh mountain in driving rain.

 

[user 6228]

.... What they actually do is build comb in a way that retains heat, often with a crossed lattice labyrinth in a curved shape. .
....

Facinating! have you got any pictures?
I have never seen that, but obvious now you mention it. It would be marvellous evidence to back up the research on bees making local themal decisions in clusters (See work by Heinrich and others)
Temperature gradients curve the bees!

 

[oliver90owner]

Just look at the comb built from the roof of an empty bait hive (particularly by a small cast) or avoiding the couple of offered frames. Often across a corner, obviously never with a gaping hole through it. Cross braced for strength (breaks away in one large morass) and separation (to prevent unwanted air currents?), and usually expanding in size towards the lower reaches.

Simple observations from the past. Seen pics of comb in compost bins (always fixed to the side wall of the bin and combs are not straight like in a frame); and not a sign of a gaping hole at the apex!

And yes, it was a bit of irony, calling some degree of insulation a luxury. But as the dictionary says; Something inessential but conducive to pleasure and comfort.

Clearly not absolutely essential for the surviving bees, but nevertheless making their survival that much easier - and possibly would have allowed some of the non-survivors to have pulled through, had the beekeeper afforded them just that little extra bit of help.

After all, beekeeping is a give and take hobby. We give them help to survive and prosper, but take their (excess) honey as a return for our taking care of them, providing them with living accommadation, etc, etc.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

a stone wall is likely to have a large thermal mass meaning that once it is up to temperature it will cool down slowly and if its in the sun it will heat up in the winter sun.

not this wall - West facing and shaded to the West and south by an ewe tree

 

[bontbee]

are ewe trying to ram your point home, jbm?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

foreign languages never my strong point pren ywen is how I'd know it

 

[REDWOOD]

Yes he did... and i have the insulation he used, thick slabs of cork.

You should know But I was only quoting what it said in his book

 

[Swarm]

not this wall - West facing and shaded to the West and south by an ewe tree

Similar situation with the outcrop, faces West though not shaded. The bees access a small opening that is almost overgrown with grass, yet there is access from the other side which is big enough for a human to enter.

 

[Itchy]

Chimneys tend to be ventilated from inside the house. Warm air rises up through the chimney. There may be downdraughts, but more often than not the inside of a chimney is warmer than outside temperatures. There have been suggestions that soot and sulphur in old chimneys might have an adverse effect on varroa.

Interesting point about the warmth from within. I have only seen a couple of colonies where the chimney is open at the bottom, mostly they are blanked upstairs fireplaces with capped chimneys. The warmth from the building must be factored in whichever they choose.

I also note that many of the chimney colonies seem to favour working from the corners of the flue diagonally. A recent one where there was a half pipe cap on top of the pot they were in, had almost completely covered the top opening with propolis to form a skin. Note here that they were entering via a crack at the base of the pot. I suspect they needed a bit of through draught here because the pot was very hot from the sun. Wonder if they closed the top for winter?

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Wonder if they closed the top for winter?

Don't be silly! they'll have slipped a couple of matches in