Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

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This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[BaconWizard]

I don't and never have treated my bees for varroa. They survive and thrive .. I don't know why they don't die out .. I've taken in two colonies from another beekeeper that were giving the previous beekeeper enormous problems with varroa .. after initial treatment they have been managed exactly as I manage my other colonies. They remain very low in mite numbers, no signs of the DWV that was previously evident and they are thriving.

Is this proof of anything ? Not at all ..is it my management, my location, my hives or a combination of a multiplicity of factors ? Who knows ? Is it replicable elsewhere ? There are clearly a growing number of beekeepers who are not treating their bees for varroa - is this leading to some bees finding ways to combat varroa in their midst ? I don't know. Bees are amongst the most opportunist and advanced insects on the planet with millions of years of evolutionary change .. could they adapt in the relatively tiny timescale since we have had varroa in the UK ? Possibly, I don't know.

(Quote shortened just for brevity)

It is precisely the LACK of observation that I am pointing out. You manage your hives.

The actual subject of discussion is very specifically NOT managed hives.

Pointing at a cavity somewhere and saying “hey look, there were bees here X years ago, and there are bees here now” does not mean they are the same bees, or that they are varroa resistant or hygienic or anything else.

It IS something to note, and that I would very much encourage someone to investigate properly to the betterment of us all. And I very much hope that it turns out to be significant.

But the actual situation being discussed falls SIGNIFICANTLY short of the kind of observations you make about your own hives, in which context even you didn’t feel able to make any specific claims about the mechanism, other than “they seem to do fine”

If we want to make a statement about what’s going on, it is perfectly fine to damand that the person making it has taken the trouble to find out if its actually true. Until then, it’s hopefully suggestive and points us to where we SHOULD look, and nothing more.

 

[Beesnaturally]

If we want to make a statement about what’s going on, it is perfectly fine to damand that the person making it KNOWS that it’s true. Until then, it’s hopefully suggestive and pouts us to where we SHOULD look, and nothing more.

I went to buy a bike from a guy in town. It was well priced, but the guy couldn't tell me that the cycloid gear inside the three-speed hub wasn't unduly worn.

"I've only had it two years from new" he said, "and it's a very reputable make. I've hardly used it. It's never given me any trouble. I spend a lot of time on the forums, and this model is common... And I've never heard of failure of the three-speed hub".

Who is going to buy a bike if they they have no idea of the condition of the cycloid gear? It could fail any any time!
Now if the guy had had it dismantled expertly, and sent to a properly accredited lab for examination, and shown me the certificate, I'd have some science to rely on, and I'd definitely have have considered the purchase."

Ok, hopefully having made some sort of point there: there are thriving wild populations the length of the land. Researchers won't beat a path to your door if you find a possible candidate.

Chill Bacon Wizard. It's just a colony, just a possible indicator of a some resistance in the locality. It's not a potential gold mine or a source of a silver bullet.

BTW I manage my bees. I manage them in a manner that allows natural selection to locate fitness, local adaptation, and doesn't unduly interfere with natural selection in the local population. It's not that you manage that matters. It's how you manage.

 

[BaconWizard]

I went to buy a bike from a guy in town. It was well priced, but the guy couldn't tell me that the cycloid gear inside the three-speed hub wasn't unduly worn.

"I've only had it two years from new" he said, "and it's a very reputable make. I've hardly used it. It's never given me any trouble. I spend a lot of time on the forums, and this model is common... And I've never heard of failure of the three-speed hub".

Who is going to buy a bike if they they have no idea of the condition of the cycloid gear? It could fail any any time!
Now if the guy had had it dismantled expertly, and sent to a properly accredited lab for examination, and shown me the certificate, I'd have some science to rely on, and I'd definitely have have considered the purchase."

Ok, hopefully having made some sort of point there: there are thriving wild populations the length of the land. Researchers won't beat a path to your door if you find a possible candidate.

Chill Bacon Wizard. It's just a colony, just a possible indicator of a some resistance in the locality. It's not a potential gold mine or a source of a silver bullet.

When you buy a car and someone says they have only had it for X years from new and it was well maintained, you ask for proof and expect to receive it without argument, if you are genuinely interested in buying.

 

[pargyle]

When you buy a car and someone says they have only had it for X years from new and it was well maintained, you ask for proof and expect to receive it without argument, if you are genuinely interested in buying.

Or you ask if you can take it for a test drive and observe if there are any faults for yourself ...

 

[BaconWizard]

I went to buy a bike from a guy in town. It was well priced, but the guy couldn't tell me that the cycloid gear inside the three-speed hub wasn't unduly worn.

"I've only had it two years from new" he said, "and it's a very reputable make. I've hardly used it. It's never given me any trouble. I spend a lot of time on the forums, and this model is common... And I've never heard of failure of the three-speed hub".

Who is going to buy a bike if they they have no idea of the condition of the cycloid gear? It could fail any any time!
Now if the guy had had it dismantled expertly, and sent to a properly accredited lab for examination, and shown me the certificate, I'd have some science to rely on, and I'd definitely have have considered the purchase."

Ok, hopefully having made some sort of point there: there are thriving wild populations the length of the land. Researchers won't beat a path to your door if you find a possible candidate.

Chill Bacon Wizard. It's just a colony, just a possible indicator of a some resistance in the locality. It's not a potential gold mine or a source of a silver bullet.

BTW I manage my bees. I manage them in a manner that allows natural selection to locate fitness, local adaptation, and doesn't unduly interfere with natural selection in the local population. It's not that you manage that matters. It's how you manage.

If someone tried to sell me a bike that is a special bike with special properties and then tried to insist that at least having a decent bike mechanic look it-over thoroughly before I was prepared to commit, I would tell them to sling their hook.

 

[BaconWizard]

Or you ask if you can take it for a test drive and observe if there are any faults for yourself ...

Yes. Which in our analogous situation, hasn’t happened. All that’s happened is someone pointed to a car sitting in the lay-by and said some things about it based on the fact that a similar car was there and looked just as good some time ago.

 

[Beesnaturally]

When you buy a car and someone says they have only had it for X years from new and it was well maintained, you ask for proof and expect to receive it without argument, if you are genuinely interested in buying.

Fair enough. And my guy could have asked for the bike to be looked over at a local bike shop.

My point was perhaps about proportionality. You find a swarm in an area where there seem to be lots of swarms, and you know of several feral colonies, and few beekeepers. Perhaps you know of some non- treating beekeepers locally, and chatting with one you come to understand that like Pargyle his view and experience is of no problem with untreated bees thereabouts.

You've learned some things. You can draw some tentative conclusions.

Where is the beef?

 

[BaconWizard]

Fair enough. And my guy could have asked for the bike to be looked over at a local bike shop.

My point was perhaps about proportionality. You find a swarm in an area where there seem to be lots of swarms, and you know of several feral colonies, and few beekeepers. Perhaps you know of some non- treating beekeepers locally, and chatting with one you come to understand that like Pargyle his view and experience is of no problem with untreated bees thereabouts.

You've neared some things. You can draw some tentative conclusions.

Where is the beef?

that isn’t even close to the situation being discussed.

So far I can tell, there aren’t lots of feral colonies in the area, there aren’t local treatment free keepers in the same locale and nobody has taken a look, be it your guy or my guy, or me, or anyone.

 

[Beesnaturally]

That isn’t even close to the situa

that isn’t even close to the situation being discussed.

Remind me: what exactly is the situation you wish to discuss. Again, what is your beef?

 

[BaconWizard]

Remind me: what exactly is the situation you wish to discuss. Again, what is your beef?

The situation would be that of specific colonies mentioned in this thread such as in a church roof etc.

I am saying that one cannot draw conclusions from things that haven’t been established as fact.

ALL that is known in those particular cases, is that they were there, and that SOME bees had been for some time.

I have no beef, and I recommend not assuming that anyone who won’t accept a statement just because a statement is made, does have a beef.

I simply want it done properly, because it’s actually rather important.

 

[Beesnaturally]

The situation would be that of specific colonies mentioned in this thread such as in a church roof etc.

I am saying that one cannot draw conclusions from things that haven’t been established as fact.

ALL that is known in those particular cases, is that they were there, and that SOME bees had been for some time.

I have no beef, and I recommend not assuming that anyone who won’t accept a statement just because a statement is made, does have a beef.

I simply want it done properly, because it’s actually rather important.

Has anyone here disagreed with that? What is the statement that has been made that you disagree with?

What fact/s would you want established? What would convince you that they had been established?

Why the importance? "Its a colony that appears to have been there for some time." What do you want?

 

[BaconWizard]

Has anyone here disagreed with that? What is the statement that has been made that you disagree with?

What fact/s would you want established? What would convince you that they had been established?

Why the importance? "Its a colony that appears to have been there for some time." What do you want?

Good grief…

 

[Beesnaturally]

Good grief…

What is the beef, where is the grief? You appear to be on a quest to be outraged by claims that no-one is making. I'd call that a straw man argument, except I see no argument.

"I simply want it done properly, because it’s actually rather important."

Help me out: what exactly is the 'it' here?

 

[Mint Bee]

Good grief…

calling beekeepers who do not support your locally adapted approach part of the problem is hardly going to gain support for your local observations.

Bacon, you are wasting your time trying to apply any scientific logic.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I don't and never have treated my bees for varroa. They survive and thrive .. I don't know why they don't die out .. I've taken in two colonies from another beekeeper that were giving the previous beekeeper enormous problems with varroa .. after initial treatment they have been managed exactly as I manage my other colonies. They remain very low in mite numbers, no signs of the DWV that was previously evident and they are thriving.

The environment not the bee?

 

[Beesnaturally]

calling beekeepers who do not support your locally adapted approach part of the problem is hardly going to gain support for your local observations.

It may gain support from those who understand, and are sympathetic to the goals and the possibilies.

However: gaining support for something is nor especially high on my list of goals here.

And I can recognise fairly quickly people whose support is simply unwinnable.

Bacon, you are wasting your time trying to apply any scientific logic.

I often read this sort of thing from people whose comprehension of science is clearly thin. They tend to know the words of the science song, but be unable to hear the music. Or comprehend the blend of science and art that is bee breeding.

Again, John Kefus, probably the best qualified scientist (i.e. relevant PhD) in the area of bee breeding:

'You don't need to know _how_ it works. You need to know _that_ it works.

What is he talking about Mint Bee? What works?

 

[Beesnaturally]

The environment not the bee?

What aspect of the environment would you suggest?

 

[Tizzywizzy1uk]

There will always be those who demand scientific, measured and proven evidence for observed behaviour. I don't, personally, consider everything that I see (or indeed observed by others) as requiring empirical evidence.

If you look back to the origins of the benefits of insulation on hives (in both summer and winter) you can trace it back to William Broughton Carr and his WBC hives in the 19th Century - developed purely on observation. Bill Bielby - in the 1960's and 70's ...observation only - showed the benefits of having draught proof and insulated hives. Yet it is only in the last few years that Derek Mitchell has, scientifically, proved that insulation has a marked effect on the ability of colonies to thrive and survive.

The fact that some things in beekeeping can only, at the present time, be largely evidenced by individual beekeepers observations does not make them any less relevant. It sometimes takes time for the science to catch up with observed behaviour - it does not always mean that what is observed is superstition, folk-tale or happy accident.

I don't and never have treated my bees for varroa. They survive and thrive .. I don't know why they don't die out .. I've taken in two colonies from another beekeeper that were giving the previous beekeeper enormous problems with varroa .. after initial treatment they have been managed exactly as I manage my other colonies. They remain very low in mite numbers, no signs of the DWV that was previously evident and they are thriving.

Is this proof of anything ? Not at all ..is it my management, my location, my hives or a combination of a multiplicity of factors ? Who knows ? Is it replicable elsewhere ? There are clearly a growing number of beekeepers who are not treating their bees for varroa - is this leading to some bees finding ways to combat varroa in their midst ? I don't know. Bees are amongst the most opportunist and advanced insects on the planet with millions of years of evolutionary change .. could they adapt in the relatively tiny timescale since we have had varroa in the UK ? Possibly, I don't know.

I've avoided contributing to this blog as the discussion can never end with any scientifically supportable outcome. My view .. if you try it and it works for you .. all well and good - but if you are waiting for someone to show you the silver bullet supported with scientifically proven evidence you may have a long wait.

I have never treated for varroa or even inspected for it. I have 30 colonies all from the one original hive and the hives are built using 2 layers of ply creating a cavity with the back of the inside wall with reflective foil backed insulation attached to it, the lid has torch on bitchumen felt attached with the same insulation as the walls. I never lose colonies throughout the winter and the colonies are all super strong..the healthier they are the more aggressive they become. The hive design keeps the temperature inside less fluctuant.
No diseases and healthy bees

 

[Erichalfbee]

What aspect of the environment would you suggest?

I was referring to the bees Phillip keeps but to answer your question … none

 

[Beesnaturally]

I was referring to the bees Phillip keeps but to answer your question … none

I ask because 'the environment' is a very wide thing. In respect of bees, as well as forage, agricultural toxins and micro-organisms, it includes the significat factor of drones that may carry genetic coding that is not locally adapted, nor adapted to offer any resistance to varroa. It further includes mites that have very different characteristics to those that might have co-evolved with local bees, reducing their fecundity.

I find it useful to pick out these factors, as most likely to make a difference to no-treatment beekeeping.

The best environment, and the best clue that no-treatment bee keeping may succeed, is the presence of wild/feral bees (yes we need to be able to distinguish them from escapees) and the absence of numerous treated colonies.