Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

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This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[Beesnaturally]

They both seem to be enjoying it - let's not spoil their fun.

Are you on the spectrum? Does it really feel like I'm enjoying it?

 

[pargyle]

I think you are missing an appreciation of the potency of natural selection...

Heath-giving traits (here, the varoa defence mechanisms) are heritable.

The least heathy bees die before reproducing. Zero inheritance, gene pool/next generation not supplied with inadequate genes

The most healthy bees supply the most genes to the gene pool. That is, the heath-giving (heritable) traits. Most healthy genes (traits) supplied in greatest number to the gene pool (next generation).

(in the middle, the more healthy traits, the more genes are passed into the next generation.)

Given natural selection those genes supplying health giving traits are thereby concentrated in the next generation; while those supplying the least healthy traits are eliminated.

Beautiful, no?

This happens in every single free-living organism. If it didn't, the species would become extinct.

Its not a question of belief. Its a question of does Darwinism apply? The scientific answer to that is, absolutely, its in no doubt at all.

But ,,, in my case ... there can be few opportunities for heritable traits ... out of 8 colonies there are three with bought in queens that are still heading up my colonies and two with awful varroa history that came from another beekeeper. The other three are home bred but open mated - one as a swarm result the other two supercedures. There are few 'new generations' in my colonies.

I'm not saying that there could be in the future but at present ... not a lot.

My success cannot be fully explained by changes in the local gene pool.

 

[pargyle]

Are you on the spectrum? Does it really feel like I'm enjoying it?

If you weren't you would stop responding to everyone who has a divergent view. If you keep banging your head on the wall then it willl begin to hurt ... better to stop and let them get on with it for a while.

And yes ... I'm certainly on the spectrum, as was my mum and one of my sons ....

 

[Beesnaturally]

But ,,, in my case ... there can be few opportunities for heritable traits ... out of 8 colonies there are three with bought in queens that are still heading up my colonies and two with awful varroa history that came from another beekeeper. The other three are home bred but open mated - one as a swarm result the other two supercedures. There are few 'new generations' in my colonies.

I'm not saying that there could be in the future but at present ... not a lot.

My success cannot be fully explained by changes in the local gene pool.

It could be explained by a wild/feral population or two within a few miles.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm astonished you find this sort of behaviour entertaining, and consider it your job as moderator to encourage it.

I don’t find it entertaining at all. I’m not the one who mentioned popcorn.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Indeed
There’s fun and fun. Once litigation starts getting bandied about people get really hot under the collar.
Does the OP want confrontation or acquiescence?

I can't see how someone can litigate when they had already put their private details in the public domain elsewhere?

 

[pargyle]

I don’t find it entertaining at all. I’m not the one who mentioned popcorn.

That was me ....

 

[Erichalfbee]

That was me ....

That’s ok. I forgive you

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

even here on a blog. I ask the moderators to recognise naysaying and obstructive posting,

yet you are happy enough to jump on and hijack someone else's blog

So your putative Amms will be killing off any naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral actual Amms that might be around. (And any other naturally adapted/ing local wild/feral colonies)

That doesn't sound very good for the local ecology does it?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Perhaps Mint Bee will supply his name and address, and his place of employment, so we can check up on his credentials,

It’s probably on his honey jars and you have a website so both in the public domain.

 

[Ian123]

Oooooh does that now mean we can use bee base to see how remote Kent actually is

 

[Beesnaturally]

I give up. It's just to easy for a few bad apples to ruin an undermoderated forum. If anyone is interested in continuing the topic, pm me and we'll find another way to do it.

 

[Mint Bee]

I am on the spectrum (Asperger's) which is why I am a damn good scientist and call out BS when I see it,
I'll stop contributing to your blog (another PM) when you stop called everyone who doesn't agree with your observations a beekeeping problem

Don't put something in a PM, email or other private communication that you don't want made public. Basic communications 101, it can easily be made public, even if not intended to be disclosed. I have my address and telephone number on my honey. I didn't need a website to sell the best part of half a ton of honey this year (plus nucs), and still leave more than that for next year before next years harvest

We are both on LinkedIn. happy to publish mine, if you publish yours

I actually have no problem with your observations and think that it would be interesting to develop these with additional sites and beekeepers. It just you are being a complete Richard about your forum posts

 

[Erichalfbee]

undermoderated

Lightly moderated, please.

I'm astonished you find this sort of behaviour entertaining, and consider it your job as moderator to encourage it.

and no apology for this either?

 

[pargyle]

OK ... I think this has to stop now. The forum is moderated within the guidelines established over a long period of time - it would not, normally, be within our remit to close a members blog but can you all just take a break. Let the thing settle. BN is passionate about his beliefs in allowing bees to naturally develop mechanisms to combat varroa and we should allow him to put forward his ideas ... however, on the converse the continual rebuttal of those who challenge those beliefs and seek firm evidence also has to cease.

It was always going to be contentious, treatment free beekeeping is contentious - whether feral bees survive without treatment and contribute to a gene pool of survivor bees seems to be a topic on here that invites ridicule and adverse comments and having combined the two on here (again) we have a toxic mix which does not belie the general bonhomie of the forum.

So ... I'm asking nicely, Stop now. Debate rationally and calmly or stop posting.... everyone.

Because ... the next step will stop it altogether. Let's avoid the tears at bedtime.

 

[Wilco]

"
Can you prove your car will start in the morning before you turn the key?"

I would bet £10 at 10:1 on every day it would start and have £365 at the end of the year in winnings. Some things are near certainties and worth betting on

Besides the point but I think your maths is out by on what your profits would be... £10 at 10:1 surely gives £100 prize plus your initial stake. Wouldn't doing that every day for a year make it £36,500 profit?

 

[rook66]

Besides the point but I think your maths is out by on what your profits would be... £10 at 10:1 surely gives £100 prize plus your initial stake. Wouldn't doing that every day for a year make it £36,500 profit?

He should have explained he is a bookie, I always check my winnings at the races, three times!

 

[madasafish]

Besides the point but I think your maths is out by on what your profits would be... £10 at 10:1 surely gives £100 prize plus your initial stake. Wouldn't doing that every day for a year make it £36,500 profit?

10 to 1 ON.
So I win £1 for a £10 bet.
So 365 x £1.

No I don't bet on anything but know my odds

 

[Steve at Westerham Beeks]

Beekeepers are afraid of natural selection. Perhaps due to a combination of a loss of control, 30 years of education about treatments (or your bees die) or fear of commercial loss. All understandable. But it does stop beekeepers learning from long standing survivor stock that is either unmanaged or feral. One of the best examples is the work Tom Seeley researched in the Arnot Forest written up in the The Lives of Bees. Only some bees have the right genetics / mechanism to control their varroa population. In the UK, we will get increasing amounts of information from the observations that Filipe Salbany is carrying out in the tree cavities of the Blenheim Estate. Perhaps the purest example of natural selection in the UK? Or right up there with the wild bees in the Snowdonia forests.

Without understanding the mechanism that honeybees are deploying to control their varroa, "varroa resistance" is a nebulous term that's hard to teach to beekeepers. A key trait of all of the long standing (untreated) survivor stock, is high levels of uncapping & recapping. This controls the mite population through the season and consequently virus levels in the colony. Excellent research from Prof Stephen Martin's team in this area.

Most beekeepers don't want to put chemical miticides (pesticides / insecticides) on their colonies. They just don't know how to avoid doing so. Natural selection is the bluntest of tools towards achieving fit honeybees that can look after themselves. So we offer training to our beekeepers on the steps to get there (Westerham Beekeepers -see website for earlier parts of the project). Eventually, we have found that beekeepers completely grasp the natural selection nettle over a winter colony loss as having the wrong genetics (unfit to cope with [name your pathogen]). It becomes obvious that one wouldn't have wanted to breed from that colony.........

 

[madasafish]

In the UK, we will get increasing amounts of information from the observations that Filipe Salbany is carrying out in the tree cavities of the Blenheim Estate. Perhaps the purest example of natural selection in the UK? Or right up there with the wild bees in the Snowdonia forests.



Most beekeepers don't want to put chemical miticides (pesticides / insecticides) on their colonies.

Salbany? Has he published his DNA results yet or does it take two years to get them?

"Most beekeepers don't want to put chemical miticides (pesticides / insecticides) on their colonies. "

Where is your evidence for this claim? No doubt you have the results of an opinion poll to share with us.