Wild/Feral Survivor-Thrivers: Naturally Selected Resistant Bees.

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This is for discussion of bees that have acquired the ability to cope with varroa without any help. The core assumption is that in the UK and Ireland this has occurred through natural selection for the fittest strain, and any subsequent selection has built on that. The idea is to learn from each-other, what works, and why, in the realm of no-treatment beekeeping. Testimonies, questions, explanations and links to relevant scientific studies are all welcome.

I'd like the thread to be a place where the mechanisms that wild populations employ to locate and maintain resistance can be explored, in the belief that that topic holds the key to understanding why no-treatment beekeeping works in some circumstances and not in others.

 

[user 20297]

I didn't believe that the world existed beyond the horizon. Someone told me that they were sitting over the horizon and would bring me a photo as proof. They had to come from beyond the horizon in order to do that. But then they were seeing my horizon and there was no proof that the land over the horizon still existed.
Sometimes you've just got to show good faith on the balance of probability.

 

[madasafish]

I didn't believe that the world existed beyond the horizon. Someone told me that they were sitting over the horizon and would bring me a photo as proof. They had to come from beyond the horizon in order to do that. But then they were seeing my horizon and there was no proof that the land over the horizon still existed.
Sometimes you've just got to show good faith on the balance of probability.

I was taught to follow the following maxim:
"Trust and faith are good, control and proof are better."
It has stood me well in all walks of life.

Edit: see also the prior PM.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I was taught to follow the following maxim:
"Trust and faith are good, control and proof are better."
It has stood me well in all walks of life.

Edit: see also the prior PM.

Can you control the colour of a baby's eyes?

Can you prove your car will start in the morning before you turn the key?

Some things lie outside that simple 'maxim'

The only way you can know if a queen is good is to try her.

However: if you make offspring from your best parents the chances are best that you will get good offspring.

A good maxim for genetic husbandry:

"The Race Is Not Always to the Swift, Nor the Battle to the Strong; But That Is the Best Way to Bet"

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

Bacon, you are wasting your time trying to apply any scientific logic.

that's the trouble with all zealots.

I agree with Bacon on this one - claims of these longstanding 'feral survivors' hardly ever withstand even the lightest scrutiny
they are not survivors, they are simply continuously repopulated by swarms from other 'maintained' colonies

the healthier they are the more aggressive they become

goodness - and that's a benefit?

 

[madasafish]

Can you control the colour of a baby's eyes?

Can you prove your car will start in the morning before you turn the key?

Some things lie outside that simple 'maxim'

The only way you can know if a queen is good is to try her.

However: if you make offspring from your best parents the chances are best that you will get good offspring.

A good maxim for genetic husbandry:

"The Race Is Not Always to the Swift, Nor the Battle to the Strong; But That Is the Best Way to Bet"

"
Can you prove your car will start in the morning before you turn the key?"

I would bet £10 at 10:1 on every day it would start and have £365 at the end of the year in winnings. Some things are near certainties and worth betting on

 

[Mint Bee]

It may gain support from those who understand, and are sympathetic to the goals and the possibilies.

However: gaining support for something is nor especially high on my list of goals here.

And I can recognise fairly quickly people whose support is simply unwinnable.

I often read this sort of thing from people whose comprehension of science is clearly thin. They tend to know the words of the science song, but be unable to hear the music. Or comprehend the blend of science and art that is bee breeding.

Again, John Kefus, probably the best qualified scientist (i.e. relevant PhD) in the area of bee breeding:

'You don't need to know _how_ it works. You need to know _that_ it works.

What is he talking about Mint Bee? What works?

your own education is a MA in modern philosophy, I believe, so not a scientific background. I cant see any links to the education of John Kefuss, other than some reference to being a pioneer in treatment free beekeeping in his apiary's in France. If that was a quote from his PhD, he wouldn't have passed it if I'd been his examiner. That's the comment of an observer, not a scientist and doesn't advance anyone's understanding or knowledge.

if its not repeatable by others elsewhere, its a local observation with no transferable mechanism of action, as has been discussed at length on your other threads. You have refused to detail your methods for replication by others as I believe you said you were too busy and not interested in this, as well as its appears not gaining support for your local observations.

FYI I have a Ph.D., although not in bee breeding and currently work using molecular biology and genetics to treat rare disease, so I'll leave it up to you to decide if I'm a bit thin on science.


From your website I believe?



What's soon?

 

[Beesnaturally]

"
Can you prove your car will start in the morning before you turn the key?"

I would bet £10 at 10:1 on every day it would start and have £365 at the end of the year in winnings. Some things are near certainties and worth betting on

Sure - we can all row back to what ever sort of probability we want to demonstrate. My point was that while control and proof may be preferable, some things can't be known - but are worth pursuing anyway. You may not know now, but in pursuing you will come to know more.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Mint Bee seems to think John Kefus is an amateur. This is just a taster:

Integrated Pest Management Control of Varroa destructor (Acari​

https://academic.oup.com › jinsectscience › article



by CJ Jack · 2021 · Cited by 15 — Breeding efforts by Jeff Harris and John Harbor at the USDA laboratory in Baton ... After nine years, all but three of the colonies had died (Kefuss et al.

The Varroa Problem : Part 6B - Small-Scale Breeding​

https://scientificbeekeeping.com › ...



Practical application: John Kefuss points out that “a beekeeper with only one hive might be the one with the biggest 'pot of gold'–everyone should screen ...

Diskuze​

http://www.vcely.or.cz › konference.pl › konference



Kefuss produces 3,000 mated queens a year in France, which he sells worldwide. His breeder queens sell for 650€ each. His apiary in Chile, Pacific Queens with ...

treatment free beekeeping, mehiläishoitoa ilman lääkintää​

https://naturebees.wordpress.com › page



16 Feb 2022 — Some should continue the work of John Kefuss, Terje Reinertsen and myself, and start new Bond breeding programs. We pioneers have smoothed ...

The American Bee Journal​

https://americanbeejournal.com › uploads › 2021/01

PDF

3 Dec 2020 — When John Harbo, right, arrived at the USDA Honey Bee Stock Center in ... tion, see this wiki: https://en.wikipedia. ... Kefuss, John – 1008.
120 pages

Biosecurity For Beekeepers Appreciation For Pollen​

https://www.beeculture.com › uploads › 2020/10

PDF

10 Oct 2020 — environment/definition-of-a-good-farmer ... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Old_Potato_ ... Ruttner's, John Kefuss, had told.
100 pages

Honey Bee Stewardship at the Psycho Chicken Eco Farm​

https://www.psychochickenecofarm.com › bees



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pollen_source; Interview with Dr. John Kefuss on the Treatment-free beekeeping podcast:

 

[Mint Bee]

I have been PMed by Beenaturally asking to take down his Christian name, educational details and except from his website in case people find him from my previous post. I'm then threatened with police action if I don't do so and there is any theft or vandalism to his bees

I'm leaving the comments on his educational qualifications so that people can make their own minds upon his genetic knowledge and application to bee breeding.

first name and website except gone now in previous post, but still want to know when we can all try these bees. Who knows they might work outside Kent and then we can all eat humble pie

If mods want to remove my posts go for it

 

[Beesnaturally]

You have refused to detail your methods for replication by others as I believe you said you were too busy and not interested in this,

None of that is true at all.

I've never made a secret of the way I have run a live and let die experiment for 12 years now, collecting cut-outs and swarms. I tapered then stopped collecting about 6 years ago, and have since made increase from best multiyear performers (and bait hives have picked up a few swarms - hopefully mostly mine).

I have run unlimited brood nests. For the last 2 years I've swapped out old brood comb, 2-4 each year. I boost with fondant in springtime. I normally run very small single entrances, even through flows. I've never bought a bee, or used treatment, or given any bees help against varroa in any form. I use standard cedar hives. This year is the first I've cut out cells, so over the years I've lost many swarms, and hives that have succeeded in raising new queens are present.

I have I have perhaps 50 full-size hives at present most of which do very well multiyear. Of the cut-outs and swarms I colleced in the early years, probably 2/3rds to 3/4 died. - though often in ways that could have been avoided had I wanted to defend them a little more/been a better beekeeper. (Winter losses especially - mice, badgers, gales take too many, but some just perish. Losses have been as low a 15% even with this clumsiness, and as high as 20% Bear in mind I don't requeen, and if I colony fails to supecede in time winter often takes her and good riddance)

Precisely what I do has changed through the experiment. At first it was all about live and let die. Now it has become more about testing what seems to be my best genes in the field. It wasn't a sudden change, but a gradual shift. As I perform the shift I do my best not to interfere with the natural selection. (Making increase doesn't interfere if I take the resulting hives away, but I do leave some to replace losses.)

In general terms I try to do much more than I can achieve, and so things fall apart a bit at the seams. I don't think that interferes with my process hugely.

This last year I've been experimenting with queen raising (a miserable failure the year before) and am getting much better at it. But I have much to learn. I enjoy that part as much as anything.

What I enjoy most is taking honey and larvae from bursting hives that have been occupied and performed well, unaided, for 6 or 7 years. And watching my heart-in-mouth investment, my gamble, my experiment work its way out as I had predicted - and as so many had said could never happen

I can't think of anything else that is relevant, but ask away.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I have been PMed by Beenaturally asking to take down his Christian name, educational details and except from his website in case people find him from my previous post. I'm then threatened with police action if I don't do so and there is any theft or vandalism to his bees

I'm leaving the comments on his educational qualifications so that people can make their own minds upon his genetic knowledge and application to bee breeding.

first name and website except gone now in previous post, but still want to know when we can all try these bees. Who knows they might work outside Kent and then we can all eat humble pie

If mods want to remove my posts go for it

When I'm good and ready. The best things happen slowly. I get probably 30-50 calls each year for nucs, and disappoint most. I'm not sure I can find a good reason to sell to hostile folk here when I can sell to willing buyers locally. That hostility here makes me think I'd get a dreadful report however the bees performed, unless I'm very choosy.

I didn't ask you to take down my educational details btw, just those details that might result in loss.

Do you routinely make public personal communications from your fellow scientists? I'm no scientist, but I rate that higher than mere bad manners. Trying to intimidate by revealing personal details higher still.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I've put up this thread so that those who are interested in the possibilities of keeping bees treatment-free can talk about the ways natural selection is a part of the picture. Its become obvious that some people want proof of a sort that is not easily available, and are reluctant to accept the very clear scientific testimony of free-living bees, and the explanations of how they come to be able to live freely.

It is my hope that such people will be satisfied with having registered their disapproval, and will allow those who are interest to have the conversations to which they are surely entitled.

It is often said that there is room for all sorts of beekeeing here. I have to say: it doesn't feel like that at all, even here on a blog. I ask the moderators to recognise naysaying and obstructive posting, and make space for those who wish to have a pleasant, productive, and mutually-supportive conversation about this aspect of beekeeping.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Might I suggest that those people who disagree with the OP just avoid this blog? It would make my life much easier for a start

 

[Erichalfbee]

If mods want to remove my posts go for it

No. It’s ok

 

[pargyle]

The environment not the bee?

It would appear that way in my case .... It can't be the bees as the two colonies I took over came from miles away and once I got them into my apiary and running in poly hives with insulation on top they are largely the same as my existing colonies ... they are the same queens as I took over and so there's no change in genetics ... Hence, it has to be the environment ... Viz:

1. The hives they are in.
2. The way I manage them.
3. The foraging area and what is available.
4. Contact with other bees and their mites.
5. The actual location of my apiary.
6. The fact that it's centred on three lines of energy that cross.

Perm any variations from that lot and throw in a bit of luck and some fairy dust and you have anything but the bees.. My queens, outside of the two I took over, are from either home reared stock, MBC's lovely welsh black queens or descendents of two of Jon Getty's queens. Mostly mongrels I would suggest.

The local association (apart from a handful of beekeepers) are mostly treaters - there's a wide mix of varroacides used in the area but it's classed by most as solid varroa country.

I won't knock anyone's theory about their bees thriving without treatment ... I simply don't know. I don't think VSH is the answer, generally, unless you can keep your stock in a fairly isolated area and even then, apocryphally, it would appear that they don't do well once mated outside of their gene pool.

So .. if Beesnaturally believes it's keeping the local bees free of treatment and that they develop the ability to manage varroa loads - that's fine by me. Perhaps it has an effect. Bees are rapid learners and it may be that what he is seeing is learned behaviour passed on by colonies that find a way of managing with varroa as much as genetic development ... Either way, if it works for him - that's fine.

Noboby HAS to follow his path no matter how loud he bangs his drum.

Me ? Well I'm 12 seasons in and treatment free from Day 1 - My bees don't die, I practice swarm control and inspect for disease (not that they get any) but otherwise I'm pretty low interference. I sugar roll to check mite levels and leave them mostly enough of their own honey to not have to feed much. It works for me ... and I get an above average honey crop. If I found that my bees were suffering an excessive mite load ... I would treat them. No point in losing colonies on principle - I'm more pragmatic than that.

And .. in the words of Forrest Gump ... That's all I have to say on that. ...

 

[pargyle]

Might I suggest that those people who disagree with the OP just avoid this blog? It would make my life much easier for a start

Where's the fun in that Dani ... sales of popcorn are growing the economy daily !

 

[Erichalfbee]

Where's the fun in that Dani ... sales of popcorn are growing the economy daily !

Indeed
There’s fun and fun. Once litigation starts getting bandied about people get really hot under the collar.
Does the OP want confrontation or acquiescence?

 

[pargyle]

Indeed
There’s fun and fun. Once litigation starts getting bandied about people get really hot under the collar.
Does the OP want confrontation or acquiescence?

Ahhh ... we've seen worse in times past...they will kiss and make up eventually, They both seem to be enjoying it - let's not spoil their fun.

 

[Beesnaturally]

So .. if Beesnaturally believes it's keeping the local bees free of treatment and that they develop the ability to manage varroa loads - that's fine by me. Perhaps it has an effect. Bees are rapid learners and it may be that what he is seeing is learned behaviour passed on by colonies that find a way of managing with varroa as much as genetic development ... Either way, if it works for him - that's fine.

I think you are missing an appreciation of the potency of natural selection...

Heath-giving traits (here, the varoa defence mechanisms) are heritable.

The least heathy bees die before reproducing. Zero inheritance, gene pool/next generation not supplied with inadequate genes

The most healthy bees supply the most genes to the gene pool. That is, the heath-giving (heritable) traits. Most healthy genes (traits) supplied in greatest number to the gene pool (next generation).

(in the middle, the more healthy traits, the more genes are passed into the next generation.)

Given natural selection those genes supplying health giving traits are thereby concentrated in the next generation; while those supplying the least healthy traits are eliminated.

Beautiful, no?

This happens in every single free-living organism. If it didn't, the species would become extinct.

Its not a question of belief. Its a question of does Darwinism apply? The scientific answer to that is, absolutely, its in no doubt at all.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Indeed
There’s fun and fun. Once litigation starts getting bandied about people get really hot under the collar.
Does the OP want confrontation or acquiescence?

Conversation of an earnest and peaceful kind.

Perhaps Mint Bee will supply his name and address, and his place of employment, so we can check up on his credentials, tell fibs and generally bad mouth him to his peers? I'm sure he'll have no objection to having his livelihood threatened.

I'm astonished you find this sort of behaviour entertaining, and consider it your job as moderator to encourage it.