Wild Colonies Overwintering ?

[BeeJayBee]

Watched one of the many progs on TV about the Americans and how they take the bees to the almond crop.

In one prog there was a bit about swarming whilst they were on the fields..

You'd think by now that the almond crop owners would have enough bees of their own..

There's nothing there for the bees to eat once the almonds have stopped flowering.

 

[sunhivebee]

I am another 'non-treater' and also run solid floors. (tin hat at the ready ) I have had very small colonies survive the winter, and come out healthy and raring to go in the spring - why shoudln't they be able to do this in the wild in a suitable tree nest?

It is very difficult to guage how many feral swarms exist - if they are in thier prefered location several metres up from the ground - how many people would ever notice them? Tom Seely's initial research into bee nests was severly affected by the fact that all reported bee nests were less than 2 meters off th eground because he was relying on reported sightings .

I agree, Elaine; I know of a beekeeper in your neck of the woods who has made it a special interest to keep around 20 wild colonies in his area under close observations; he told me recently that 11 of those are in their fifth year.

Someone contributed that there was a "consensus" that ferals don't exist. I wonder whose consensus that might be? Someone who thinks that bees need beekeepers. That's really hilarious.

Non-treating, in my experience, has a fair chance of success if the colonies' brood interruption afforded by swarming gives the bees a chance to experience much reduced varroa loads during those brood free periods; however, allowing natural swarming is not an option for everyone. Various other stress inducers have to be addressed too, for a successful non-treatment approach in the longterm. Encouraging that more and more beekeepers are trying to get off the treatment treadmill.

 

[Dishmop]

Encouraging that more and more beekeepers are trying to get off the treatment treadmill.

I agree but one of the first things that new beeks are told, either from a book or a mentor or local association is that bees will die if they arent treated..(or fed).
Press coverage about colony collapse seems to have been all but forgotten about.

Three years ago all the talk was about bunging anti varroa strips into the hive at various and precise times of the season but most mention now is of oxalic acid at Christmas..

 

[masterBK]

There are many people in the world that just manage to survive the ravages of disease and near starvation without help from others (and many that don't) but not sure they would consider themselves to be flourishing. Does Sunhivebee think that we should not treat such people or feed them but allow natural selection the time to come up with its solution with millions dying in the meantime?

Lots of beekeepers don't just want their bees to just survive but to flourish and produce a surplus of honey for them. Diseased Colonies and those that swarm themselves out don't produce much honey in my experience.

 

[alldigging]

Dishmop: "Every swarm that doesnt get caught and rehoused, creates a new wild colony."

In pre varroa days it was estimated that in the northern hemisphere only 25% of prime swarms that became feral survived their first winter. I wonder what the survival rate for feral swarms is nowadays with Varroa, DWV, Nosema ceranea and Neonics and lack of forage

Something in Seeley I think points out that the first year of setting up a home is wax dependent at the cost of honey production for winter. Therefore the first bees to colonies a tree might not survive that winter, but their wax legacy will go on and the next colony to find it will do better.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

I agree, Elaine; I know of a beekeeper in your neck of the woods who has made it a special interest to keep around 20 wild colonies in his area under close observations; he told me recently that 11 of those are in their fifth year.



Someone contributed that there was a "consensus" that ferals don't exist. I wonder whose consensus that might be? Someone who thinks that bees need beekeepers. That's really hilarious.



Non-treating, in my experience, has a fair chance of success if the colonies' brood interruption afforded by swarming gives the bees a chance to experience much reduced varroa loads during those brood free periods; however, allowing natural swarming is not an option for everyone. Various other stress inducers have to be addressed too, for a successful non-treatment approach in the longterm. Encouraging that more and more beekeepers are trying to get off the treatment treadmill.

Heidi; your tone seems quite tentative. "Non-treating, in my experience, has a fair chance of success if..." Do you now apply some treatments?

 

[Dishmop]

Someone contributed that there was a "consensus" that ferals don't exist. I wonder whose consensus that might be? Someone who thinks that bees need beekeepers. That's really hilarious.

What do you call yourself then if not a beekeeper?

 

[Finman]

There's nothing there for the bees to eat once the almonds have stopped flowering.

Bees are moved to next pollination farm. Hives are moved even 10 times a year towards north and hives do not stand that pollination circus. This has nothing to do with European beekeeping.

 

[user 6228]

Something in Seeley I think points out that the first year of setting up a home is wax dependent at the cost of honey production for winter. Therefore the first bees to colonies a tree might not survive that winter, but their wax legacy will go on and the next colony to find it will do better.

Another thing is that a tree while insulating has a high heat capacity. Its a considerable investment in energy heating it up from cold.

 

[user 6228]

I agree, Elaine; I know of a beekeeper in your neck of the woods who has made it a special interest to keep around 20 wild colonies in his area under close observations; he told me recently that 11 of those are in their fifth year.

Someone contributed that there was a "consensus" that ferals don't exist. I wonder whose consensus that might be? Someone who thinks that bees need beekeepers. That's really hilarious.

Non-treating, in my experience, has a fair chance of success if the colonies' brood interruption afforded by swarming gives the bees a chance to experience much reduced varroa loads during those brood free periods; however, allowing natural swarming is not an option for everyone. Various other stress inducers have to be addressed too, for a successful non-treatment approach in the longterm. Encouraging that more and more beekeepers are trying to get off the treatment treadmill.

The habitat of feral bees is so different to that of those in hives that taking the survival in one to have relavence to survival in the other has dubious validity.
That bees can survive without treatment in the wild is fairly well proven. But why they do, when some hives struggle is a subject for research and debate.
It should be understood that all testing of treatments and most research is done in thin wooden hives that bear little resemblance in performance to tree nests or the other habitats that honeybees adopt.

 

[Little John]

More likely that they found good warm trees.

If the tree was nice and warm it wouldn't have a bl##dy great cavity in it.
Tree cavities at height are invariably created by limb damage followed by rot resulting from rainwater ingress, or near ground level - again caused by rot of the heartwood, but fed from rising damp. Either of which are indicators of damp conditions inside tree cavities - i.e. damp is precisely why the cavities have developed ...

LJ

 

[user 6228]

If the tree was nice and warm it wouldn't have a bl##dy great cavity in it.
Tree cavities at height are invariably created by limb damage followed by rot resulting from rainwater ingress, or near ground level - again caused by rot of the heartwood, but fed from rising damp. Either of which are indicators of damp conditions inside tree cavities - i.e. damp is precisely why the cavities have developed ...

LJ

The fungi responsible for rot are capable of moving water upwards from a source. The bees and other insects tunnel out the soft fungus and weakened wood, removing the water path. Honeybees are also a burrowing insect. They dont only chew polystyrene foam , cardboard , clingfilm and rubberbands

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

If the tree was nice and warm it wouldn't have a bl##dy great cavity in it.
Tree cavities at height are invariably created by limb damage followed by rot resulting from rainwater ingress, or near ground level - again caused by rot of the heartwood, but fed from rising damp. Either of which are indicators of damp conditions inside tree cavities - i.e. damp is precisely why the cavities have developed ...

LJ

... and propolis

 

[BeeJayBee]

Watched one of the many progs on TV about the Americans and how they take the bees to the almond crop.

In one prog there was a bit about swarming whilst they were on the fields..

You'd think by now that the almond crop owners would have enough bees of their own..

There's nothing there for the bees to eat once the almonds have stopped flowering.

Bees are moved to next pollination farm. Hives are moved even 10 times a year towards north and hives do not stand that pollination circus. This has nothing to do with European beekeeping.

@ Finman - that's not the point. Bees that swarm whilst on almonds will starve because there is no natural food for them once the almonds have finished flowering. Swarms are not collected and moved on to another crop, they are abandoned. It may not be the way things are done in this country, but migratory beekeeping is done in places other than USA.

 

[sunhivebee]

There are many people in the world that just manage to survive the ravages of disease and near starvation without help from others (and many that don't) but not sure they would consider themselves to be flourishing. Does Sunhivebee think that we should not treat such people or feed them but allow natural selection the time to come up with its solution with millions dying in the meantime?

Lots of beekeepers don't just want their bees to just survive but to flourish and produce a surplus of honey for them. Diseased Colonies and those that swarm themselves out don't produce much honey in my experience.

All beekeepers I have ever met want their bees to flourish, myself included, and some want them to flourish without constant treatment. The latter explore ways to bring that about. The comparison with starving people eludes me, frankly.

 

[TryingToLetThemBee]

All beekeepers I have ever met want their bees to flourish, myself included, and some want them to flourish without constant treatment. The latter explore ways to bring that about. The comparison with starving people eludes me, frankly.

I'm just not sure that a squirt of extract of rhubarb leaves every December counts as "constant treatment" and you have not answered my question but I believe you agree. My biggest colony, which I overwinteed, benefitted massively (IMO) from a mite-free winter and spring and I want that benefit for them.

 

[BrianO]

Interesting Observation

The focal point of this original posting was a wild colony that had over wintered from 2013 ( and maybe previously ) in a friends holiday home in SE Ireland in the eaves of this timber clad holiday home, about 100mtrs from the beach/sea.

Was there again today , was astounded to see the Frenetic activity of the bees Coming and. Going , many with bulging pollen sacs, large number coming and going . I mean about 20/30 continuously entering and leaving the hive.

Going to next Spring set up a bait hive ..... In the hope theses guys are in some way more Varroa resistant than the std Bee. Whether they are or not the colony is massive and thriving and frenetic with activity with foraging bees coming and going on a chilly October 5th Autumnal day, surely the sign they posses some desirable attributes, especially having over wintered 2013/14 and subsequently thrived as described above.

 

[pargyle]

Interesting Observation

The focal point of this original posting was a wild colony that had over wintered from 2013 ( and maybe previously ) in a friends holiday home in SE Ireland in the eaves of this timber clad holiday home, about 100mtrs from the beach/sea.

Was there again today , was astounded to see the Frenetic activity of the bees Coming and. Going , many with bulging pollen sacs, large number coming and going . I mean about 20/30 continuously entering and leaving the hive.

Not that astounding ... bees are incredibly adaptable and I think that we underestimate just how well they can manage when left to their own devices, Long may it continue ...

I was talking to my wife today, as we were walking the dog, about how it had been a good year for bees and then we came round the corner and a meadow that's been uncultivated for at least 10 years to our knowledge had been ploughed, right up to the field margin .... a month or so ago it was alive with the sound of grasshoppers and covered in butterflies, bees and other insects .. today.. brown earth and silence ... we are not learning !

 

[user 6228]

Not that astounding ... bees are incredibly adaptable and I think that we underestimate just how well they can manage when left to their own devices, Long may it continue ...

I was talking to my wife today, as we were walking the dog, about how it had been a good year for bees and then we came round the corner and a meadow that's been uncultivated for at least 10 years to our knowledge had been ploughed, right up to the field margin .... a month or so ago it was alive with the sound of grasshoppers and covered in butterflies, bees and other insects .. today.. brown earth and silence ... we are not learning !

thats the plough it now , then they cant stop all farming/development later.
A bit like the banning ivory sales has caused elephant poaching to increase!

Unintended consequences law of

Now back to the subject

An insulated void with a vapour trap... why cant a colony exist for years?

We initially did not treat cos our hives were too weird for them to have been tested with varroacides. We then found a reason why the bees might not pop their clogs , and so far they haven't

derek
p.s. I know bees dont wear clogs

 

[BrianO]

Where a wild overwintered strong colony spotted, must be well worthwhile placing a baited hive nearby at the onset of activity.

Love to hear from anyone having done this and the traits of the swarm captured ??