why BBKA not EBKA

[sherwood]

"No sherwood. The usage of "British" as an euphemism for English has been a source of serious annoyance to the non English members of Britain for long enough and only the non English people can express this annoyance."

EBKA is accurate

I hate to disappoint you PH but I am scottish and I expect that though the BBKA represents the English and Welsh beekeepers that at least 10 -15 percent of the overall membership of the member societies will be made up of Scots and Irish who have come to enrich your culture.

 

[victor meldrew]

In Wales yes (just visiting, although it's been 21 years now ...) but not Welsh.

A friend of mine (whilst in the forces) was Welsh born and bred of an English father with 25 years standing in Wales. My friend used to say that though his father could vote on issues in local clubs/societies that he was a member of , he was expected to raise his arm only half way up .

John Wilkinson

 

[Repwoc]

"No sherwood. The usage of "British" as an euphemism for English has been a source of serious annoyance to the non English members of Britain for long enough and only the non English people can express this annoyance."

EBKA is accurate

I hate to disappoint you PH but I am scottish and I expect that though the BBKA represents the English and Welsh beekeepers that at least 10 -15 percent of the overall membership of the member societies will be made up of Scots and Irish who have come to enrich your culture.

I wonder if they would still be eligable to join if it was changed to EBKA?

Logically, since a fair fraction of the membership originate from parts of Britain other than England, it must remain the BBKA.

 

[Poly Hive]

Where the membership come from is relatively unimportant. Though I doubt there are that many Scottish members who reside in Scotland. I cant think of anyone I know north of the border who was a member.

What annoys me as a Scot is the arrogance of the name. They have no remit outside England yet use the word British. It is in my view just not right.

PH

 

[Black Comb]

Looks like this can of worms is quite large and lively.

 

[gavin]

Yup, it is nothing to do with the birthplace of the members, but the geographic and political areas the organisations claim to represent. The two most senior SBA people I talk to are both English! (And I have no problem with that)

The Welsh BKA is an umbrella organisation for the Welsh local BKAs, the Scottish BKA is an umbrella organisation for the Scottish local BKAs and the Ulster BKA does the same job for the NI local associations. The 'British' BKA has this on its website, written by Ivor Davies:

'Most of our members 'belong' to the BBKA indirectly. Primarily, they belong to local associations, based mainly on English counties. We now have over 63 affiliated associations.' I'm not sure if any are Welsh, but there is that one NI group in there.

What have you started MuswellMetro?!

all the best

Gavin

 

[VEG]

I am a member of the welsh beekeepers and I think some of the capitation money goes to the bbka. For this reason I think it is called the bbka as it doesnt just represent english beekeepers.

 

[gavin]

Hi Craig

Perhaps I should stick to what I know, which is that N of the border the BBKA has no role. But this text below is on the WBKA website and it implies that the Welsh run a similar system to us in Scotland (no indirect members/capitation in Scotland, but that's a different matter).

all the best

Gavin

Individual membership of the WBKA is possible, but most of the 900 membership are indirect members who have joined one of the nineteen local independent beekeeping associations affiliated to the WBKA. A proportion of the fee paid by a member of an association goes towards the operating costs of the WBKA and also to providing third party and product liability insurance negotiated by the WBKA on behalf of its members.
The WBKA is governed by a Council consisting of elected members and officers. Member Associations are encouraged to contribute their views as to the future role and development of the WBKA and each Member Association may also appoint two voting members to the Council.
You can locate and find out more about your local association here.
We organise and run a successful Annual Convention with leading speakers and trade stands.
The WBKA publish and distribute The Welsh Beekeeper four times a year as part of our mission to keep Welsh beekeepers informed.

 

[VEG]

Gavin I will get back to you on that. As I said I think it does. I have been wrong many many times before.

 

[gavin]

I'll happily admit that I've been wrong before! It would be nice to clear this up though. There may be Welsh local BKAs that decided to go with the BBKA rather than the WBKA for instance. Is another possibility that you were thinking of BDI - Bee Diseases Insurance? Just occurred to me while I was washing dishes

all the best

Gavin

 

[sherwood]

What annoys me as a Scot is the arrogance of the name. They have no remit outside England yet use the word British. It is in my view just not right.

PH

THey have been doing this for years I can remember my history books whilst at school if it was an English regiment that was outstanding or meritorious it was an ENGLISH regiment whereas if it was a SCOTTISH regiment no it wasnt it was a BRITISH regiment. This is still a recurring theme Andy Murray for instance and they wonder why we have a chip on our shoulder well a bit of sawdust really.

 

[Repwoc]

There may be Welsh local BKAs that decided to go with the BBKA rather than the WBKA for instance.

Gwent BKA is affiliated to BBKA and yes, Gwent is (was) in Wales. GBKA however was originally called Monmouthshire BKA and while Monmouthshire is currently in Wales it used to be regarded as an English county (at least by the English I suppose) until 1974.

 

[Repwoc]

THey have been doing this for years I can remember my history books whilst at school if it was an English regiment that was outstanding or meritorious it was an ENGLISH regiment whereas if it was a SCOTTISH regiment no it wasnt it was a BRITISH regiment. This is still a recurring theme Andy Murray for instance and they wonder why we have a chip on our shoulder well a bit of sawdust really.

So what? You can't blame an entire nation because of the ramblings of a few history book authors and journalists. There is a curry house down the road from where I live called the British Raj. It's run by a family of Indians. Are you going to take offence at that too?

This is getting pathetic. Time to move on I think.

 

[VEG]

Well as I said I may be wrong and I am. Our beekeeping association doesnt pay anything to the bbka it goes to the welsh beekeepers association. So lol call it what ya like

 

[gavin]

No worries Craig. I think that the lesson here is that to call it the BBKA misleads people, and you were mislead!

G.

 

[Hombre]

Hi Gavin,

Do you have histrionic knowledge of the relevant years were when the BBKA and SBKA(?) were founded. It will probably show intent to represent Britain, or of cessation. The fact that England and Scotland have separate legal systems might also have been a significant influence on the arrangements.

I noticed many years ago, living in Dunfirmline that the Scots are as guilty as the English of calling things British when it suits. Maybe it's a journalistic thing but not confined to the newspapers.

I'm impressed by the way that you think deep thoughts whilst washing dishes.

It's not an issue that's likely to keep me awake at night, that's for sure, and the bees don't give a jot.

 

[gavin]

Hi Hombre

I do my best thinking at the kitchen sink (and also some good stuff in another of the smaller rooms in the house)



Yes, I'm making no complaints about the way any of us talk about the nationality of sports heroes. Tennis, like golf, tends to be a 'British' sport anyway, whereas football and rugby are something else. I'm sure the Scots are just as fickle as anyone else regarding the use of the word British.

OK, as far as I am aware the SBA had some false starts, the first of which was around the same time as the BBKA. Whether the BBKA started with the intention of covering the whole of the British Isles (or the UK) I know not, but that isn't the way things settled out. We also have CONBA, the means by which the national beekeeping associations join forces and speak to government and the like. My impression is that its importance is waning as more government functions are devolved.

bye for now

Gavin

 

[oliver90owner]

Gavin,

So now you are saying it was the Scottish bee keepers that messd it all up? They would not play ball with the BBKA and split straight away as the SKBA?

Typical behaviour. Would not be surprised. In retrospect (insecticides etc) they were probably right.

Probably the truth is nearer to getting a voice heard, rather than being swamped by a larger area organisation, or the differing patterns of beekeeping, etc.

Calling things 'British' is a way of presenting part-ownership maybe or not wanting to admit the other country's superiority in that discipline, or just plain ignorance of the actual nationality on the part of the writer.

Regards, RAB

 

[Hombre]

Many thanks Gavin.

 

[gavin]

Hi RAB

So now you are saying it was the Scottish bee keepers that messd it all up? They would not play ball with the BBKA and split straight away as the SKBA?

No, I didn't say anything of the kind and don't believe for a minute that it was like that. The Scottish Beekeepers Association came about through a desire to link and strengthen the local associations in Scotland. The earliest amalgamations comprised one in the East and one in the West. The one in the East now functions as a local association and is the one I joined. The SBA emerged later as an attempt to make a combined national association for Scotland. The history is described here:

http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk/contacts/documents/3_theSBA.pdf

I've no idea how the BBKA came into being and what its aspirations were in the early days.

Yes, it was probably more to do with getting a voice heard than anything, backed up by the different beekeeping practices at the time. The Stewarton Hive was popular in Scotland at the time for example - something like an octagonal Warre.

One thing that hasn't come out clearly in this debate is the difference in the way the two organisations run. The SBA has individual membership for anyone wishing to join, as does the BBKA. With membership comes insurance, but that insurance only operates for bees on Scottish soil. Not that long ago (within the last two decades) affiliated membership (those dreaded capitation fees) was dropped and the only way to become a member is now to pay the individual membership fee direct to the SBA. We also have one member - one vote at the AGM and Council meetings. None of those contentious delegate meetings where your delegate may or may not have consulted before key votes. I think that puts the organisation more in the hands of the membership than happens in the BBKA.

best wishes

Gavin