When queen rearing what traits do you look for?

[drstitson]

"One method which I have used is simply to take the cell raising colony apart and distribute all the frames to nucs arranged in a circle around the site of the old hive."

Of course when using the above "metodo del ventaglio" approach one doesn't have to make up a circle but can instead form an arc (convex or concave) of nucs arranged around the site of the old hive.

 

[RoofTops]

I've also done it as two lines down either side of where the original hive used to be. The trick is to try and get the foragers to redistribute themselves around the nucs as evenly as possible. It doesn't always work. Last year I had them all virtually trying to get back into one nuc. There were so many they wouldn't fit so I had to swap the nuc for a full sized hive with extra undrawn frames in.

 

[blackbrood]

The big question is what do you do when you have the queen cells ready?

I need to consider how I am going to split the colony and to what degree. This is an idea that has been running round my head and stills needs some due thought.

With mini-nucs you can then reject any queens which show chalk brood for example or which simply fail to mate

Some thing I had not considered about queen quality control and implementation, create numerous mini nucs/nucs and then assess for the best, kill queens off with undesirable traits and then merge these nucs, This would be a superior idea to just trying to get one queen and accepting that standard. breed multiple (if possible) and pick the best. Makes sense (harder to achieve but if I aim high, who knows)

If you want to improve your stocks a good solution is to take the nucs/mini nucs to another site for mating.

again some thing I had not considered taking the un-mated queens to the vicinity of a good quality hives like the association. I will have to discuss this idea with friends to try and formulate a plan but definitely has potential.

Cheers Rooftops some really good pointers not just for traits to look for but potential on ways to acquire them

BB

 

[drstitson]

"again some thing I had not considered taking the un-mated queens to the vicinity of a good quality hives like the association. I will have to discuss this idea with friends to try and formulate a plan but definitely has potential."

although some people might not like the idea of providing any help for varroa, providing local association apiary is on top of varroa control (or better still full of hygienic bees!), you might suggest a more active involvement in your plans (in exchange for spare queens perhaps?) - get (half) frames of drone comb inserted into the best/all association hives ahead of the queen rearing - check your books for exact timings - to ensure good stock of mature drones in area when queens arrive.

 

[RoofTops]

Mini-nucs need less bees and that is why I use them but assessing the queen is not perfect in them. Chalkbrood shows readily but the problem is the frames are really too small and the queen has to be moved out of the mini-nuc too quickly for a full assesment - but at least you can check for obvious defects.

I am currently trying some mini-hives which have frames about half the width of a National Super. Each mini-hive takes 6 of these and as they are made like a conventional hive with a separate floor, roof and body it is possible to stack the bodies and increase the room for the queen. I have 3 over-wintering at the moment and so far things are looking good. These are better for queen rearing than mini-nucs but are about twice the price, which is a factor which needs to be taken into account!

 

[drstitson]

john - are you talking about the polish poly nucs/mini-hives (discussed here previously - http://www.beekeepingforum.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6294 - and available from a Wragby based supplier), which look not bad for the money, OR something else (top secret??)???

with custom made frame holders the frames from Keilers/apideas will surely happily transfer into one half of your jumbo langstroth nucs with room for 2 more frames.

 

[Finman]

Mini-nucs need less bees and that is why I use them but assessing the queen is not perfect in them. Chalkbrood shows readily but the problem is the frames are really too small and the queen has to be moved out of the mini-nuc too quickly for a full assesment - but at least you can check for obvious defects.

that is very important. I keep my new queens in 3 frame mating nucs so long that I see what is the new queen. It means 4-5 weeks in the nuc. i may enlarge the nuc when I pile them 2 and I get 6 frame nuc.

Since I took into usage those nucs, i have not need to make extra nucs. It is easy to add emerging bees to the nuc an get as big hive as i need.

Mininucs are expencive. With that money i get normal brood box which I split into 3 pieces.
It is important that frames are brood size. In autumn I aid small hives with those brood frames and bees. Works fine. No playing with unproper frames.

 

[Finman]

.
When the queen has layed 3 weeks, it is very easy to put into another hive. It is a big difference with one week layed. Really big.

 

[RoofTops]

Not so top secret. They are German made. Swienty sell them but there are other suppliers in Germany itself. They also have a full width feeder available.

Look for the Mini-Plus in the Swienty queen breeding secton.

 

[blackbrood]

This was the list I finally came up with of traits that can be bred for and are beneficial to the bee keeper

# Hygienic behaviour
# Clean brood nest
# Varroa resistance
# Disease resistance
# Lays plenty of eggs
# Good brood pattern
# Non swarmy
# Worker bees live as long as possible
# Collects plenty of pollen / good foraging
# Collects plenty of nectar / good foraging
# produces lots of honey
# Non aggressive / gentleness / docility
# Low Winter food consumption
# Steady on the frames
# Non following
# Early starters
# Late finishers
# Early strong spring build up
# Good Defensive tactics towards wasps/hornets
# Ignoring bee keeping when inspecting


BB

 

[Poly Hive]

I am astonished at this list.

If I missed it I apologise now, but my quick scan said nothing by anyone about supercedure.

I would not even think of breeding from a queen which did not have a history of supercedure.

PH

 

[RoofTops]

I suspect most beekeepers would struggle to select for more than 2 or 3 of those traits - so which ones should they be?

I would go for temper, lack of swarming (supercedure as PH says is good), and overall health in terms of no visible chalkbrood, deformed wings etc. A strong colony is usually a healthy one so choosing a strong colony that doesn't bite my arm off and ideally has a queen who doesn't swarm would be a good start.

More advanced selection requires record keeping over several generations - which I haven't really got into.

 

[blackbrood]

I am astonished at this list.
I would not even think of breeding from a queen which did not have a history of supercedure.
PH

That is a fair point, Can I ask for clarification

When you say "do not have a history of supercedure"

Do you mean the bees are quick to pick up a failing queen and replace quickly and with another viable queen

or do you mean they don't supersede at the drop of a hat once/twice/three times a year unnecessarily?

Supercedure might come under non swarmy depending on your clarification

BB

 

[Scutellator]

I suspect most beekeepers would struggle to select for more than 2 or 3 of those traits - so which ones should they be?

I would go for temper, lack of swarming (supercedure as PH says is good), and overall health in terms of no visible chalkbrood, deformed wings etc. A strong colony is usually a healthy one so choosing a strong colony that doesn't bite my arm off and ideally has a queen who doesn't swarm would be a good start.

More advanced selection requires record keeping over several generations - which I haven't really got into.

Many of the characteristics are linked, so it's not so hard to select for dozen of them. For example very fertile queen means shorter lived bees, wich lead to less swarming (les able to do so). High swarming - less honey. Early starters/ late finishers often means less vitality (longevity) and bigger winter cluster as a consequence.
You can get most of the traits that you seek, but you can't have all of them, so it's a matter of personal choice, compomise, finding the balance between the advantages and disadvantages. The good bee is like the good wine - it's a matter of balance.

I prefer a bee which is easy to work with, that allows rapid manipulations ( less defensive, less brace comb, and most of all i hate sticky propolis at my fingers, prefer to keep my hands cleen), that requires less work ( storing the honey separate from the brood, high comb building ability, non swarmy, able to defend the nest from robber bees, heat resistant) and that gives more honey in return ( start late, very rapid spring building, make strong colonies, keep optimum streight throughout the summer/able to make the best use from every honeyflow, and most of all disease resistant).

I prefer to not use failing or supersedure queens for breeding, because that gradually lead to less vitality

Using a mongrels as a staring point for breeding is a waste of time.

 

[Poly Hive]

My bees in Scotland were AMM and were much given to supercedure, some going three years before self replacing on the Heather as evidenced in Spring by the colony having a bonny unmarked unclipped queen when the record card stated the opposite.

I would say I was up to a good 60%+ superceding which cut out a lot of swarm work.

PH

 

[Scutellator]

After few generations of supercedure, the bees don't even think for swarming anymore.

Many beeks in Bulgaria like this trait and rely on superceding, because they don't have to buy a queen, and the bees swarm less.
At one time i liked superceding too.
But there are others trigers (unstead less vitality) that help against swarming. One of them is the ability to redirect the working energy from outdoor to indor activities( when they are unable to fly, they can turn that energy to comb building, brood rearing and etc.) The other is the so-called swarming sluggishness, the ability to swich off itself (or is more appropriate to say standby mode) like a machine and swich on when needed. The different bees have a different treshold of "doing nothing" and that is the trait that shoud be used against swarming.
By the way the swarming never was a issue for me, for some inexplicable for me reason.

 

[beebreeder]

Black brood
Try this for Rons info.http://www.moraybeedinosaurs.co.uk/stanton_park.html
kev

 

[Finman]

This was the list I finally came up with of traits that can be bred for and are beneficial to the bee keeper

DREAM LIST


# Hygienic behaviour ....... in my country no queen breeder make that test

# Clean brood nest......what is that

# Varroa resistance .... very few can do that

# Disease resistance .... what disease ... some are easy

# Lays plenty of eggs ... jep, but cannot use in many hive models

# Good brood pattern .... no sign of diseases

# Non swarmy .... it is possible but hard work to keep it on

# Worker bees live as long as possible .... you will never know that

# Collects plenty of pollen / good foraging .....fast spring build up

# Collects plenty of nectar / good foraging ..... jep, sum of many things

# produces lots of honey = same as nectar foraging

# Non aggressive / gentleness / docility = that is easy

# Low Winter food consumption = really difficult to measure

# Steady on the frames = nowadays they do

# Non following = agressive

# Early starters = never seen that they go to forage morning mist

# Late finishers = not to me

# Early strong spring build up = pollen foragers

# Good Defensive tactics towards wasps/hornets = they do witout selecting

# Ignoring bee keeping when inspecting = calm


BB

 

[Finman]

.

At least top me that list is impossible or even half of it.

I need over 15 hives that I may select some kind of mother queen.


what is breeding = selecting


If your queen does not have those features, do you kill them or let be ?

I rear extra queen and I kill the queen fast when it shows:

* give stings "too much"
* brood area is sporous
* sign of chalkbrood
* do not lay in 2 brood boxes


So I weed these genes from genepool

 

[Finman]

.
What about a feature "does not lay during winter". It means high food consumption but do you kill those queens = weed off genes