Whatever happened to those NZ bees?

[johnandyrob]

My family orginates from Ireland and Norway but I wouldn't call myself native Irish or Norwegian, what with being born in Wales.
Confusing isn't it?

Just like black bees from wales may have ancestors from different parts of the world brought in to replace bees that died out due to isle of white disease and pure amm aren't necessarily british black bees they could have their amm routes in Holland say?

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Just like black bees from wales may have ancestors from different parts of the world brought in to replace bees that died out due to isle of white disease and pure amm aren't necessarily british black bees they could have their amm routes in Holland say?

Exactly.

 

[mbc]

Just like black bees from wales may have ancestors from different parts of the world brought in to replace bees that died out due to isle of white disease and pure amm aren't necessarily british black bees they could have their amm routes in Holland say?

I can just imagine rural people investing their enormous surplus income on imported bees during the great depression - NOT !
Despite the Isle of White disease people still kept bees - in fact, some reports suggests most farmsteads and cottages had bees in the 20's and 30's - and I'm sure these would have come from swarms of survivors rather than from swarms from the odd toff who might have had sufficient income to invest in restocking.
Most history is written from the perspective of the privileged few with little relevance to the lives of ordinary people. I doubt if most Welsh beekeepers would have heard of the Isle of White disease or Bro. Adam and his buckfasts until long after the event.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

I think the whole "are AMM bees indigenous?" argument is a bit pointless to be honest. Why does it matter?
The fact that they (or any other strain for that matter) are suitably adapted to the local climate/situation is surely more important than their distant ancestry.
And, again, this is why I am sceptical about imports. They will never have the chance to adapt to local conditions because they can't be viably open-mated and are kept racially pure through further imports.
I can perfectly understand why this is important to bee breeders, but still find it a bit uncomfortable as it doesn't really seem sustainable.

 

[mbc]

Its almost certain there were more bees in the wild and in the care of beekeepers at the beginning of the 20th century than there are now. Just how organised do people think the beekeeping industries ( if industry is the right description) of Holland and France or wherever were at this time to supply bees in their hundreds let alone thousands or tens of thousands needed to significantly impact the gene pool of bees in the whole of the British Isles ?
I totally accept that since imports began the gene pool will have been evolving differently with the incorporation of any successful genes but I cannot accept the nonsensical idea that the indigenous population was superceded overnight.

 

[greatbritishhoney]

Its almost certain there were more bees in the wild and in the care of beekeepers at the beginning of the 20th century than there are now. Just how organised do people think the beekeeping industries ( if industry is the right description) of Holland and France or wherever were at this time to supply bees in their hundreds let alone thousands or tens of thousands needed to significantly impact the gene pool of bees in the whole of the British Isles ?
I totally accept that since imports began the gene pool will have been evolving differently with the incorporation of any successful genes but I cannot accept the nonsensical idea that the indigenous population was superceded overnight.

I think we are at cross purposes here.
I completely agree with you that those who suggest AMM was totally wiped out then reintroduced from overseas are, at best, guessing.
The point I am making is that it really doesn't matter either way in terms of whether one favours AMM. It is usually those in favour of imports or other strains that continually raise this "indigenous" question, possibly as a bit of a smokescreen.
To my mind, whether AMM are indigenous has nothing at all to do with whether it is ethical/desirable to import bees from NZ.

 

[mbc]

No crossed purposes Gbh, just that I was typing while you were posting.
Sustainability has got to be a worthwhile aim and for me that involves less imports, not no imports, just selected ones aimed at benefiting the majority rather than the short term needs of individuals.
Interesting to note that ITLD, who imported these NZ carnies freely admits the base of his stock is amm, and one of the reasons he rates these NZ bees is their compatibility in that they mix well in the subsequent generations with his other bees. Kind of makes a mockery of the amm naysayers on this thread

 

[johnandyrob]

The fact is that we have been importing bees into this country for decades if not centuries from all over. When british breeders can come up with bees with the characteristic people want at the times and quantity they are wanted their will be less demand for queens from abroad making it economically inviable to import them. It comes down to supply and demand

 

[greatbritishhoney]

The fact is that we have been importing bees into this country for decades if not centuries from all over. When british breeders can come up with bees with the characteristic people want at the times and quantity they are wanted their will be less demand for queens from abroad making it economically inviable to import them. It comes down to supply and demand

I understand that, and I don't want to go over old ground that was covered in the original NZ bees thread but (that's exactly what I'm about to do)......
Sustainability is about living within your means and capabilities as opposed to just going out and getting what you want despite the cost and consequences.
Supply and demand is often held up as an unassailable fact but there are many instances where humans successfully impose systems that limit or modify supply and demand for the greater good (drugs for example).

 

[Skyhook]

Supply and demand is often held up as an unassailable fact but there are many instances where humans successfully impose systems that limit or modify supply and demand for the greater good (drugs for example).

I would like to think that supply and demand is not insuperable, but I don't think drugs is a good example- there are plenty of people willing to meet the demand.

Apparently under prohibition, alcohol consumption actually rose.

 

[johnandyrob]

Thats fair enough but how long would you have waited and how long would other people wait. My bees are local dark coloured mongrels they are aggressive. I could get other local bees that tend to swarm lots. If I had the knowledge maybe I could breed some thing more desirable from what is available. I dont have that knowledge should I wait till I do and put up with my aggressive bees till then?

 

[Swarm]

Shouldn't we be learning just a little bit from all the disasters of introduction? How did varroa appear?
Some people don't give a hoot and therein lies the problem. It'll be SHB next.

 

[Hivemaker.]

We would need to ban the importation of many things to prevent this lttle pest arriving,and that cannot happen really.

 

[Haughton Honey]

No crossed purposes Gbh, just that I was typing while you were posting.
Sustainability has got to be a worthwhile aim and for me that involves less imports, not no imports, just selected ones aimed at benefiting the majority rather than the short term needs of individuals.
Interesting to note that ITLD, who imported these NZ carnies freely admits the base of his stock is amm, and one of the reasons he rates these NZ bees is their compatibility in that they mix well in the subsequent generations with his other bees. Kind of makes a mockery of the amm naysayers on this thread

MBC,

I have asked in several threads on this forum if anyone can either a) show me an AMM or, b) show me a definition of what an AMM actually is.....and as yet nobody has.

Like everything related to flora, fauna and farming species and landscapes chop and change throughout time and history with those of us who suffer with the most myopia trying to cling on to things as best we can (I'm not referring to you when I say that).

Things evolve.

 

[Swarm]

"Things evolve."
Nobody can argue about that. Unfortunately this normal evolution is given a helping hand by human beings. As I posted above, just think of all the catastrophes we meddling humans are responsible for.
Nature is a finely tuned, balanced thing that never ceases to amaze and then we get involved and b***s it all up.

 

[Poly Hive]

To the best of my knowledge no one knows how varroa arrived.

The two most likely theories are a swarm in a shipping container, or a silly beekeeper with a queen in his pocket plus attendants.

AMM is also called the Dark Bee (Ruttner) If you read Ruttner he proposes that the further north you go the greater the likely hood of finding pure AMM.

B. Mobus was convinced that in Aberdeenshire pure AMM existed, and he passed on his bees to me after he retired from Craibstone.

They I have to say fitted Ruttners description to a tee, and when they were sampled by the BIBBA big wigs they were astonished. As posted before that was the last of BIBBA in Scotland which made a bit of a joke of their beliefs as personally I would have thought they would be all too keen to source them, but no. Odd eh?

Anyway that is all I can say. And before the chestnut gets dragged out yet again there were no DNA tests available in them days.

PH

 

[johnandyrob]

Then the question becomes what happened to Poly Hives AMM

 

[Poly Hive]

A long story I am not going to tell. Let's say a personal disaster assisted by a pyromaniac farmer.

PH

 

[DanBee]

The term we should be using is "locally adapted". Too much xenophobia and black-and-white viewpoints when we start using terms like "native".

Living in South Devon we see an awful lot of Buckfast-derived stocks, and to be honest the local, indigenous, native, mongrel, call-it-what-you-will bee is more than a bit Buckfasty. I suppose that was the intention of the Buckfast strain - something suited to the beekeeper and the local climate/forage. Is it a surprise that elements have survived in the wild? No. They are the locally-adapted elements.

People seem to think Buckfast is some strange little place on Mars, totally unrelated to the British climate. Perhaps they've forgotten that it is a place as well as a brand. Actually, Buckfast is a small damp village under the southern reaches of Dartmoor, and Br. Adam's bees were kept up on the moors, principally for a heather crop. It often puzzles me when I'm up there peering through the fog and drizzle and bracing myself against the wind that beekeepers from the wetter, windier areas of the country discount Buckfast out of hand as unsuited to their climate.

Similarly these "NZ bees" are in fact north European Carnicas raised in NZ for reasons of climate and timing. The selection and breeding was done in Germany, NZ is just acting as an incubator and mating station. It may suit some to keep referring to them as NZ since it makes them sound more foreign; others may not be aware of their true origin.

One day somebody at BIBBA will have a light-bulb moment and send Amm breeding stock across to somewhere like NZ, so that suddenly Amm queens can be cheap, plentiful, and most importantly available in quantity at the right time of the year in the UK. If that ever does happen, I shall be sat on the sidelines (as a member) with a giant bucket of popcorn, watching the hand-wringing, soul-searching and semantic wrangling as they try to work out whether these imports are acceptable "native" Amm or some Antipodean aberration. "The morphometry says 'yes', but the heart says 'no'. We want to promote Amm, but we don't want to promote that Amm." Priceless

See it's not black and white; no strain is wholly good or wholly bad. There's a lot of emotional capital tied up in wanting the "native" bee to exist, and for it to be the best. Just because Amm has been here a long time doesn't mean that it will be the best, rather it means that it won't be the worst. Just because imported genes change the balance of the gene pool, it doesn't mean it always changes for the worse.

 

[drstitson]

perhaps if the term "locally adapted" were employed instead of "Irish Traveller" there'd be a lot more understanding of that situation too!!!!