Want to apply Oxalic but bees are out flying

[gavin]

Hi RAB

Yes, once they are raising brood their need for water increases, but brood-free colonies can also be water stressed.

Let me type you a section from a paper by Bernard Mobus, kindly sent to me by Ben Harden a couple of years ago. 'Brood rearing in the winter cluster', American Bee Journal July 1998, 511-514.

It is an interesting article that shows that winter brood rearing is erratic and unpredictable with a high degree of variation between colonies. He created 'super colonies' by uniting two pairs of strong colonies in autumn, as an experiment. The super colonies didn't raise any winter brood, as if they 'knew' that they were already too big.

Bees were frequently flying from these 'super colonies' and their flight was fast and direct - not to rob weaker stock, but to a source of water.

After a longer spell of cold, the weather relented again to permit cleansing flights - and inspections. Both 'super colonies' had massive, disastrous losses, and bees were clinging to the hive sides, to hive stands, to grass blades as if the 'Isle of Wight' disease (tracheal mites) had struck another blow. But trachea were clean and healthy, and no Nosema was found. Bee samples taken came to life again once they were in the warmth of the laboratory. With an idea forming in one's mind, the bodies were then weighed individually before bowels and honey stomach (with contents) were removed for further investigation. These produced the following results, when compared with samples taken from standard and dysenteric colonies (in that order). (See Table 3.)

The bees from the 'super colonies' had no excuse to fly on a cleansing flight, their stomachs were just about empty. The low (empty) body weight shows that blood quantity was low and it was extremely difficult to obtain a sample. In fact, the bees were dehydrated and had flown en masse for reasons of dire thirst! And, coming from a warm cluster without having to contribute to heat generation, they chilled by the thousands before reaching their goal: water.

Something to think about when people see large numbers perishing on the snow towards the end of a long cold period? I'm seeing large winter clusters this year and with that mild autumn and early winter giving large clusters everywhere dehydration could easily be a real problem.

all the best

Gavin

 

[oliver90owner]

Err, how many on here unite two really strong colonies in the autumn? Lets get 'real' beekeeping in context, not.

A lot on the forum regard moderaqtely strong colonires as 'really strong'.

 

[gavin]

C'mon RAB. I thought that you were smart enough to be able to extrapolate from an artificial, extreme condition to less extreme, more realistic ones.

In some years, in some situations, water will be an issue for some colonies. Even before the main brood raising season when, I assume, we all see bees drinking from nearby puddles.

I don't think that we disagree on the best way to winter: insulation overhead, OMFs are fine and will help stop dripping on the cluster, but going to extremes to ensure a dry environment in the hive may be counter-productive. Dry enough, but not shrivellingly so. A little bit on the walls or floor might help. If they reach it on the less cold days. And more humid air inside may help too.

All good info for the thinking beekeeper. And relevant for the best wintering size: clusters can be too big for their own good. It all interacts with the kind of winter we experience. Frequent mild spells, like we are having now, and none of this matters. The bees can get out regularly to top up with water or squirt away their excess as they see fit. It is entirely possible (and I'm speculating now) that the later rise in spring brood raising seen by some in polyhives is not driven by temperature (which the bees can regulate) but the water supply. If they are not burning up sugar to keep warm neither are they generating metabolic water and so they may not be in a good position to get going properly in spring.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Bernhard wrote a nice monograph on this for the 1981 BIBB converence in Celle. Here are a few snippets:

Queens were caged in several colonies. The cages were made from excluder material and bees could visit the queens, feed them, groom them and lick them. In colonies in which brood rearing was in progress at the time, dysentery developed in 2-4 weeks.

Jeffree pointed out that "optimum-sized colonies "Have fewer population losses in winter than those either smaller or larger than optimum....

Here's the summary...

For the inexperienced beekeeper we should sum up the problems of the winter-cluster, but we do not intend to solve here the problems as he sees them, on roofs, hives combs and crown boards. Moderate and weak colonies need protection, warmth and care (Make use of modern insulating materials).
Strong and very strong stocks can withstand deeper cold and long confinement. Where the less prolific type of bees is preferred, the colonies should be wintered in warm hives (bee houses, double walled hives, insulated hives) and in smaller brood boxes (reduction of available space by means of reduction to single chambers or by use of insulated dummies.). Nuclei can overwinter if housed in special shelters and if assisted during exceptionally cold spells.
On the other hand, we should always remember that very strong coloneis can be damaged by heavy insulation or by attempts at artificial hive heating. Losses due to thirst and delayed spring development can be the result.
Winter brood rearing should be avoided, through good colony management and breeding; but the escape route out of the dilemma should remain open.

I find the comment on delayed spring development interesting. Taking into account that Bernhard was investigating colonies in Aberdeen, I have heard mention that colonies in polyhives do tend to lag behind colonies in wooden hives in spring development. Anyone got any comments on this...???

 

[gavin]

Interesting stuff. Bernard promoted polyhives himself of course.

It would be interesting to learn Murray's take on this as he has many polyhives and may, like me but on a completely different scale, have some pretty big clusters this winter.

G.

 

[OXFORDBEE]

Interesting stuff. Bernard promoted polyhives himself of course.

It would be interesting to learn Murray's take on this as he has many polyhives and may, like me but on a completely different scale, have some pretty big clusters this winter.

G.

That's true but maybe Bernhard was selecting for: Less prolific type of bees which seemed to be a suggestion from his 1981 BIBBA paper...

 

[gavin]

My own bees are a bit of a mix. The really strong clusters are colonies that look more like carnies than anything else - the result of taking in swarms from a beginner who had been supplied by bees from someone who had bought stocks from a Gloucestershire trader. These ones were also on the heather so I can't tell whether genetics or the boost from the heather gave them their strength, maybe both.

I'm trying to assemble local Amm stocks at our association apiary so that we can select and breed good lines from native stock. Something Bernard himself was involved in of course.

G.

 

[mbc]

I find the comment on delayed spring development interesting. Taking into account that Bernhard was investigating colonies in Aberdeen, I have heard mention that colonies in polyhives do tend to lag behind colonies in wooden hives in spring development. Anyone got any comments on this...???

At the risk of being accused of talking nonsense; its been noted ( eg. in MB's promotional blurb )that one feature of poly hives is that quite often they will have frames of brood on the outside frames of the box ( unlike conventional hives, which are far more likely to have a frame or two of pollen on the outsidenext to the hive wall).
A simplistic view could be that without these conveniently stored frames of pollen the bees will have less resources to commence brood rearing in the Spring. Couple this with a non-absorbent hive material, warm to the touch and a free draining, well ventilated floor all contributing to an unusually dry hive interior for the bees, could account for the reported delayed Spring development.
It would be interesting to see if the addition of a few pollen choked frames early in the season would help kick start the poly hives.

 

[gavin]

It would be interesting to see if the addition of a few pollen choked frames early in the season would help kick start the poly hives.

Yes, and also a frame feeder with water in others to compare.

 

[oliver90owner]

, of coursewere smart enough to be able to extrapolate from an artificial, extreme condition to less extreme

Gavin,

I am able to interpolate (extrapolating between data points is a little difficult, would you not agree?), but between extreme and simply less extreme, to me, seems like cloud cuckoo land - no point whatsoever in a practical world. I suggest you find some data that at least has one point in reality (even by your admission - you were only quoting 'more realistic' data points).

I would suggest that only real values would be acceptable for making extrapolations (with careful consideration of the practical constraints). By the same token, interpolating from the impossible is akin to extrapolating to the impossible - simply not a sensible scientific practice.

Your comments on your scientific basis of data extrapolation or interpolation would be appreciated, if only to clear up the misinformation to less mathematically/scientifically minded readers.

RAB

 

[Into the lions den]

one feature of poly hives is that quite often they will have frames of brood on the outside frames of the box ( unlike conventional hives, which are far more likely to have a frame or two of pollen on the outsidenext to the hive wall).
.............snip.......It would be interesting to see if the addition of a few pollen choked frames early in the season would help kick start the poly hives.

Poly hives can and do on ocasions have brood in locations you would not expect it in wooden hives. They do also store pollen at times in a similarly scattered manner................however we are talking early and mid season here...........

In late season, long prior to onset of winter conditions they format themselves as perfectly normal colonies, with stores laid in just as any other hive will. Bear in mind we are talking about ahive with an omf here, so NOT exactly as a solid floored wooden hive would This is one reason we advise new purchasers of a poly hive NOT to do the transfer after July, so it can properly format itself for winter. Any later than that and you can have wintering issues.

To Gavin:-

Yes, the poly hives have good large clusters this winter, well in advance of the average wooden hives here, probably by 2 to 3 seams on average as of today.

I do not think Mobus's research on water and thirsty bees is of much *practical* significance as we never see the collapses of strong colonies that he managed to provoke in his attempts to stress them in a way which is well outwith normal practice. Interesting but not much more. Trying to do anything about it would cause far more issues than the problem itself, if indeed the problem even exists in the real world. I would rather have an 8 to 10 seam colony today rather than say five.

The poly cluster size is pretty well the same for our differing bee types. The NZ bred carniolans have good cluster size but are not excessive and do shut down very promptly in autumn, so much so we find no brood at heather stripping time much after the third week of September.

The carniolan look alikes you have will possibly turn out to be cecropia, or crosses involving cecropia, as Greek queens are commonly used in these traded nucleii. In our part of the country I am sorry for you if they do. Big clusters, long breeding, low yield, and a dissolute bunch of no merit once crossed, and, as with pure Slovenian carnica stock in this area, very prone to acarine/paralysis/nosema problems in the second half of the winter.

Murray

 

[gavin]

Thanks Murray. Happy to accept that there is no practical problem, but I still wonder if those who strive for ever-drier hives are going too far.

Those carnie look-alikes, though swarmy, did well last summer and gave me heather cut comb supers. They wintered fairly well last year ... and have almost given me cause to reconsider breeding Amm!

RAB, no idea what you are on about. Of course I know the difference between interpolating and extrapolating. There were no relevant data points other than Bernard Mobus' two double-strength colonies, so I was extrapolating.

G.

 

[Finman]

.
Bee colony can not know how big they are. Do they have "collective brains".

They have an instinct that a new queen lays here 2 weeks longer than one year old queen.

How the colony knows how big it is?. At least I have colonies from 2 frames to 20 frames. Non of then rear brood in winter. If hey do, they will die.

A colony does not know how much it has stores and it does not know to what direction it should move to reach stores. When out temp is low like -20C, bees stay in frame gaps and do not move from gap to gap. If the food is finish inside a gap, those bees will die.

Further more, a large bee colony size is a result of breeding. Do you know if bees' collective mathematics has followed evolution during last 50 years. The hive sizes are now 3 times bigger than 50 years ago.

.

 

[Finman]

Wa
Are you heating your Italians this winter? If so, maybe that partially explains the brood at this time. Better adapted bees will have shut down before now.

you are really a quick thinker! it partially explains even if I don't do it.

Better adapted bees......hah hah and hah......after 49 beekeeping year I have learned something here....
(that bloody English humour)

you have much to teach to New Zealander bees how to adapt. Here they did not live long enough that they learned the thing.

 

[Finman]

.
The place of pollen store depends on how you give space to brood and do you have excluder.

I do not use excluder and I have polyboxes with solid bottom. I hate mesh floors.

When the whole main entrance is open and 2-3 upper entrances, the queen leaves the lowest box.
Bees store pollen into lowest box. It may be full of pollen in July or half full. They store pollen too on the sides of brood area. it is usual too the inside the brood ball one frame to nearest of upper entrance is filled with pollen.

bees like to store pollen in dark combs. They seldom has much pollen in the combs which did not have signs of brood.

Like I have written, in September all pollen stores have gone. They have reared winter bees with those pollen stores. It is Italian system. Carniolans save much more pollen over winter than Italians

 

[Finman]

.
About adaptation.....i bought 4 queens last Spring from Cyprus.
Now I do not know how much I have Norton Genes in my pool.

For example one Cyprus virgin met a wild rural Carniolan drone gang in a rural village and are now quite cross blooded. And I thought that there is no other hives there.

It seemed that Cyprus pool had no difficulties to stop brood rearing in Autumn. It seemed same as "local national Italians".

.

 

[Into the lions den]

.
At least I have colonies from 2 frames to 20 frames. Non of then rear brood in winter. If hey do, they will die.

Once again we are back at Finland and much of the UK being radically different places climatically. Most of our bees, even up here in Eastern Scotland, start to tick over with very limited brood rearing from around the winter solstice. The amounts are tiny, but they are present in most colonies, albeit often a patch only say 5cm across, and not even solid at that. Of course we do not go looking, but on occasions where calamities have happend, such as fallen trees or animals (four and two legged) knocking over hives then we see that the facts on the ground bear out the research work of the likes of Mobus about small levels of winter brood.

When out temp is low like -20C, bees stay in frame gaps and do not move from gap to gap. If the food is finish inside a gap, those bees will die.

Of course, but again the differences. -20 is colder than the all time record for ANY of my wintering locations. Our normal winter temp is just above zero, and periods of a month or more without bee flight are very rare. The further south you go in the UK the warmer it becomes, and bees can normally fly occasionally, and gather some pollen , even if only a tiny amount, every month of the year in the south, and actually only December, January and February have any real risk of being flight/pollen blanks even as far north as me. On RARE ocasions, long cold spells have been known to lead to partial or total isolation from stores, with food at hand close by, but hey, that sort of issue is what fondant is for in our unit, though we rarely need it nowadays.

Further more, a large bee colony size is a result of breeding. Do you know if bees' collective mathematics has followed evolution during last 50 years. The hive sizes are now 3 times bigger than 50 years ago.

Not in this part of the world. In our core unit (Smith type) we use the same size of wintering box we used when my father started up in 1950.....actually most of his original boxes are still in service. The Langstroth we use in all the expansion units is a BIT bigger but not by a vast scale. The National hive in the UK has been around for a VERY long time and still operates normally. The long standing National/Smith box is about 55000 cells up here where we still use a slightly wider spacing than was changed to in many parts, and the very idea of moving to something of 150000 cells or more would not be a sensible. The bees here do not need it and most of the crop would end up in the brood area.

.

..

 

[Into the lions den]

Thanks Murray. Happy to accept that there is no practical problem, but I still wonder if those who strive for ever-drier hives are going too far.

If by that you mean unnaturally dry then possibly you have a point. However I have never seen a hive that does not get enough moisture, even if it is the by product of their own respiration, and even in a poly hive it is just that factor that provides the water that keeps the working face of correctly added fondant (some do not bag it properly at let it get hard) very moist. Almost invariably the locations with the correct air drainage and the driest hives inside are the ones which winter best. Dry location issues seem to be far less significant in poly than in wood.

Those carnie look-alikes, though swarmy, did well last summer and gave me heather cut comb supers.

lol.....lucky you........those were a real rarity in 2011 in our neck of the woods........in fact almost all WE got suitable for cutting came from similar bees, the blacks were generally very poor.

They wintered fairly well last year ... and have almost given me cause to reconsider breeding Amm!

<G>.............just go to the corner, sit down with a glass of New Year cheer, and reconsider your heresy. A certain gent from the west known to us both is probably building the pyre right now and erecting the stake to tie you to!

..

 

[gavin]

(that bloody English humour)

Careful! And its not the 'bloody' word that gives me difficulty ...

 

[Luminos]

Careful! And its not the 'bloody' word that gives me difficulty ...

Get your own back, Gavin. Call Finman Norwegian