VSH Bees

[Fusion_power]

I wouldn't call this a line since you have no control over the drones (which, being haploid, inherit all of their genetic material from their "mother") and you frequently bring in new queens which you have no control over.

Three of the beekeepers working with my bees maintain their locations entirely with bees of my line with nothing else "brought in" and I have a location that only has my line of bees. It is not necessary to AI queens to get a very high level of desirable matings, just control the drones in the area and that part is done. A line is a population specifically selected for one or more traits. My bees are specifically selected for the ability to survive varroa with no treatments. That makes them a "line" for breeding purposes. I have bees in 4 locations and the other beekeepers with my bees add up to 6 more locations. I can selectively mate queens at specific locations and know that the matings will be pure and repeatable.

 

[pargyle]

OA is not a more traditional 'chemical' treatment (as I read above).

Where does thymol/apiguard fit in? Non 'chemical'?

Can OA sublimation and/or a spring/autumn apiguard treatment be thought of as a step towards treatment free? At least not 'chemical varroacides'?

Was tempted to chuck in some apiguard in a week or two just so I don' shoot myself in the foot for my first full season.

BJD

Apiguard is thymol .. many people consider thymol as a 'non-chemical' treatment ... the only issue I have with it is that it's slow release - so it's in the hive for a relatively long period and whilst this does not appear to affect the bees unduly I just don't like the idea of them being exposed to the stink of thymol for a length of time.

What I like about OA sublimation is that it's a very quick treatment both in terms of how long the bees are subjected to the actual vapour and the rapid knock down rate of mites. It's over and done with very quickly and the bees really don't get agitated as they do with many other treatments.

If you use OA Sublimation, IMO, you don't need anything else. The recent studies show that it's possible to get 97% knock down of phoretic mites and if there is brood there then two or three more treatments at 5 day intervals will be very effective.

As I said, I'm not an evangelist - I would like to see more beekeepers moving towards being treatment free but I see OA Sublimation as about the lowest impact (effective) treatment you can use if your colony does require some assistance.

 

[bjosephd]

I briefly put some in last year at the same time as feeding and I think they all rushed to escape the odour and a few drowned in the feeder, so I took it out as I felt feeding and winter bee brood rearing was the most priority - never had drownings before or since.

I did notice they got a bit grumpy from it's presence. I just went for Hive Alive in the feed instead which has a thymol element to it.

What I don't want is bees coming out the front door for fresh air and then spring weather turn for the worst and many get drenched.

Your comments on OA sublimation make sense... I just don't have the kit. A brief apiguard treatment might take the varroa edge off, but then I don't know the mite load at present.

I don't really want the queen to go off lay... either way, who knows until I 'inspect' in 10 ish days time.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I just went for Hive Alive in the feed instead which has a thymol element to it.

Just remember that hive alive will do SFA to combat varroa - the thymol in it is to tackle nosema

 

[bjosephd]

Just remember that hive alive will do SFA to combat varroa - the thymol in it is to tackle nosema

I thought as much... thymol too minimal to take any effect.

It argues that it 'warms them up' to tolerate thymol more if introduced in advance of thymol based treatments.

(well precicesly... "reduces the stress on bees when Varroacides are applied by gradually introducing them to thymol.")

hmm...

I have a feeling Hive Maker is a fan of Hive Alive... at least that's what their website says.

 

[B+.]

Theres a bit on here about Thomas Freitag taking virgin queens to mate on the island of Vlieland (from 06:58 to 11:35) - Dutch video http://www.npo.nl/binnenstebuiten/07-09-2016/KN_1683389

 

[Dogwednesday]

This thread does seem to go off topic a bit.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

We had a really insightful presentation at the Liskeard group meeting yesterday - Dr Declan Schroeder from the Marine Biological Association in Plymouth (he who found the Type A and Type B DWV viruses in Ron Hoskins' Swindon bees). He is doing further bee virus research financed by the BDI. From an aside remark, I gather his boss has started to question the amount of bee virus research they are doing at what should be a marine research organisation.

It was a wide-ranging presentation covering his work and the work of other virus researchers over the last 10 years. One thing I recall was that DWV existed in our bees well before Varroa arrived but with the arrival of the mite, it became a colony killer but the bees do not always exhibit deformed wings.

As much as we tried, he would not commit himself to making a connection between what we call hygienic behaviour and identified viruses. However, he did announce that the MBA is offering to do a virus screening service for anybody prepared to pay for it. There is a bronze service - 3 x monthly checks, silver service 5 x monthly checks and gold service with 9 x monthly checks. Each monthly check costs £8 per hive, so a gold service would cost £72. Our group is considering the silver service on our best hives but not definite yet. I did not take detailed notes so I may have the number of months wrong for the gold service.

Anybody interested or wanting more details should contact Declan on [email protected] or 01752 426484 for more details. Don't ask me for more details 'cos I don't have any.

This virus screening service might help the beekeeping community determine whether those who think they've been breeding hygienic bees are actually breeding mites and bees with the "right" viruses.

CVB

 

[Erichalfbee]

One for pargyle?
I hope he sees this.
Thanks for posting cvb

 

[charlievictorbravo]

One for pargyle?
I hope he sees this.
Thanks for posting cvb

Maybe even one for LASI?

CVB

 

[B+.]

This thread does seem to go off topic a bit.

Yes. That happens quite a lot on this forum.

To bring it back on topic, here's an old clip now (2010) from Jeff Harris (https://youtu.be/D_W0XtreLTU). Sound/video quality isn't great, but, look at his conclusions around 8:38

"VSH bees showed no preference for hygienic removal of pupae with mites that produced offspring.

High infertility in VSH colonies associated with hygienically manipulated cells (recapped cells).

Consequence for uncapping-recapping different for control bees."

Part of the problem, I think, is that we have so few VSH bees available for testing. This affects the quality of any work we can do. So, part of my focus from now on is to look for high-VSH expression among the A.m.c. I test as part of the Dutch BeeBreed group. I will also be looking at the fertility of mites but, until we have a larger VSH population, I don't think we're going to be able to undertake work like this.

 

[wightbees]

Why Amc ? I mean wouldn't it be just as beneficial if it was any other bee? Even to produce a highbred?

 

[B+.]

Why Amc ? I mean wouldn't it be just as beneficial if it was any other bee? Even to produce a highbred?

The simple answer is because all the work I've seen is done with pure races (usually carnica and ligustica). I'd be very happy to see similar work being done with mellifera, but, I've never seen any. The problem with working with hybrids is that they are unstable. There is a huge amount of work to be done and, you have to ask yourself, is the effort justified?
From my perspective, I work with carnica. I have done for quite a number of years. On the one hand, you may say that I'm biased but, on the other, you can't underestimate the amount of time and effort (the financial investment is not insubstantial either) required to perform all these tests.
I have the beginnings of a VSH group and will be working to identify High-VSH among other carnica lines so the group can be expanded. I can't do all this alone and I work with other members of the BeeBreed group. It's a collaborative effort

 

[wightbees]

I would of thought they are only unstable if you don't keep to a controlled parentage, like BF . Or any bee type, come to think of it. ? I was just wondering if working with everything available might increase the hygiene behaviour.

 

[B+.]

I would of thought they are only unstable if you don't keep to a controlled parentage, like BF . Or any bee type, come to think of it. ? I was just wondering if working with everything available might increase the hygiene behaviour.

Why don't you try it? I'd be interested to hear your findings.

 

[wightbees]

It would need far more than just me to achieve anything but i like asking Questions : ) I would be interested though if a group was organised

 

[B+.]

It would need far more than just me to achieve anything but i like asking Questions : ) I would be interested though if a group was organised

Exactly my point. Its easy to sit back and pose questions but somebody has to actually do the work to gather the data. Its a huge amount of work if you're doing it all yourself and not being paid for it.
I work with about 25 other breeders in the Dutch group (http://beebreed.nl/adreslijst-beebreed.pdf). We all take at least 1/3 of other breeders test material in addition to our own. This means quite a lot of work

 

[wightbees]

It's great reading your passion for what your trying to achieve. But a forum is there to ask questions, or it would get very boring.. So i like to think of, asking questions, as a way of looking at all options and out comes and why different approach isn't used

 

[B+.]

It's great reading your passion for what your trying to achieve. But a forum is there to ask questions, or it would get very boring.. So i like to think of, asking questions, as a way of looking at all options and out comes and why different approach isn't used

Point taken. I don't really mind you asking questions. I'm just saying that academics attached to universities have access to resources that I don't and they're paid to do the work. If I want to do something, I have to finance it myself. I do what I can, but, there is a limit to how much I can do.

 

[mbc]

. I'd be very happy to see similar work being done with mellifera, but, I've never seen any. t

Isn't that what LASI are doing? Also offering lots of queens for sale to the general public,