VSH Bees

[B+.]

Personally i find this thread interesting despite it's slight duelling nature.

I have spent a large portion of my career in systems design and management so wherever I see uncertainty in a process, I see risk that you will not get the results that you are looking for. That is why I have probed what Fusion_Power is doing. Not to be adversarial, but to expose the flaws so that they can be corrected.
I have designed my own process to be as controlled as I can possibly make it, knowing full-well that there are aspects like heritability that I can't influence - but, for these things, I can perform tests. That is why I refer to them as test-groups.
BeeBreed/AGT doesn't require that you go completely treatment free but colonies that are selected for the "vitality test" (i.e. overwintering and disease resistance - https://youtu.be/ZCcbj1Gv9UM) have to go treatment free. I simply take the view that this should be combined with the "perfrmance test" (https://youtu.be/Wm7RqXJD4_w) so there is no possibility of treatments affecting the bees performance/behaviour.

In any case, this is an A.m.m forum and this whole topic is most decidedly

 

[Fusion_power]

Funny, I thought it was somewhat on topic. You see, that original colony I found in 2004 that was significantly mite tolerant happened to exhibit very strong A.M.M. traits. Some of the difficulties I am still dealing with are very much derived from an A.M.M. background. Swarming for example.

But I defer to your judgement. OT it is.

 

[bjosephd]

Well if this is Off Topic, or borderline Off Topic...

...then ADMIN, hows about that TREATMENT FREE section?

Or else this thread will go on for ever and bevome a confused behemoth of ramblings.

I'm sure there are plenty of beeks out there who aren't brave enough (understandably) to admit they are at least TFcurious on the forum, but would really appreciate following robust discussions between experienced keepers (as above).

It's a controversial subject but I think an idea that is gaining a following, and an understandig that it is potentially progressive.

I know half a mile away from me there is a 5+ year old colony in a chimney that is still going strong and ao far doesn't seem to have made our area a varroa 'plagued' area.

So peeps and beeks... how do we make this TF section happen?

BJD

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Oh no, not more research!

If we’re talking about beeks who have not treated their bees, I remind the forum of Ron Hoskins (Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group) who has not treated his bees for 20 years (since 1995). Work done and reported last November by Prof Schroeder of the MBA established the identity of the two viruses that existed in Ron’s hives. Schroeder asserts that a mechanism called superinfection exclusion was at work, with one virus variant protecting the bees from a virulent other virus variant.

Ron now hopes to continue the research by working with a virologist from Glasgow University and is looking for samples of other “treatment-free” bees as part of the research.

Attached is a form that you can download. Complete and send it off to Ron if you would like some of your bees to be part of the research.

Ron is a member of this forum but has not posted for some time - don’t know why.

CVB

 

[bjosephd]

I think he was mentioned earlier in the thread. But seems like we can't work out how to buy his bees or if they are even for sale.

I'm determined to catch a swarm from my local feral chimney colony!

 

[mbc]

If we’re talking about beeks who have not treated their bees, I remind the forum of Ron Hoskins (Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group) who has not treated his bees for 20 years (since 1995).

I've read about Ron and his varroa chewing bees for so long now that my admiration is tinged with a nagging doubt that if they were all they were cracked up to be then other beekeepers of note would have picked up on them and successfully used his genetics elsewhere, this is the part of the story which is sadly lacking imho. If anyone knows better, I'd be really glad to be put right.

The tale of dispersing them locally first doesnt really account for it either, bees lend themselves to valuable genetics being propagated on mass with each breeder capable of having many thousands of daughters.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I think he was mentioned earlier in the thread. But seems like we can't work out how to buy his bees or if they are even for sale.

I think they are for sale. Under the tab "For Sale", the website states : The Queen and accompanying bees, now being supplied in a Kieler Mini-nuke, will have been bred from bees showing a very high degree of hygienic behaviour, i.e. “Bees which groom adult varroa mites off each other and also uncapping, removing and discarding young bee pupae from the cells where varroa are actively breeding”
To those who buy these bees from us we suggest that a frame of drone comb or foundation is added when hiving up or uniting with a colony. This will encourage the production of drones which may add their hygienic genes to the local gene-pool during mating.

He does not go on to say what the price is for queen or even if he's happy to sell to people outside Wiltshire - I know he'd like to set up a "treatment free" island around Swindon so that the drones influence the mating of other beekeepers' virgin queens. Somebody who wants one is just going to have to phone up and ask if he's selling to any Tom, Dick or Harriet.

CVB

 

[bjosephd]

Yep. Couldn't find a price or, as like you said, he doesn't want to sell outside of the 'island' of Greater Swindon.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

I've read about Ron and his varroa chewing bees for so long now that my admiration is tinged with a nagging doubt that if they were all they were cracked up to be then other beekeepers of note would have picked up on them and successfully used his genetics elsewhere, this is the part of the story which is sadly lacking imho. If anyone knows better, I'd be really glad to be put right.

I know what you mean - it looks almost too good to be true - why aren't academic bee researchers beating a path to his door? He is by no means an academic - just a long-term beekeeper who happens to be a good observer of what was happening in his hives. He learned genetics from his books - a bit like Brother Adam. He is very suspicious of academics - the paper on the viruses his bees had gave him lots of work (large samples of bees and varroa mites on a weekly basis) and barely a mention of that effort in the paper although they were named in the acknowledgements at the end of the paper. I heard him speak at Holsworthy two weeks ago and I was impressed. Unfortunately, because he is not an academic, most sources of funding are closed to him so a lot of it is self-financed (a bit like Derek Mitchell's work on the thermal performance of bee enclosures).


A clue to what he sees as the way forward is in the tab "My Research" on his website. He states:
One other thing I haven’t yet mentioned. My varroa are also different to others in that they not only have the nasty version of DWV but also have an equal amount of the protector virus. How can that be?
With my team and the co-operation of an expert beekeeper in Salisbury, we must conduct a variety of trials aimed at finding answers. Each test needs to be followed by having a virologist assess the results for us. This means I must now seek funding, as such tests will be expensive, especially as a quick turnaround is needed with our short British queen rearing season.
Trials will be conducted using the bees of my Salisbury colleague, as his bees are not immune. This will give us the opportunity to conduct a variety of projects.
1. Is it as simple as having a queen passing on immunity via her eggs?
2. Can my bees pass immunity on by feeding newly hatched Salisbury larvae?
3. Can immunity be passed on using semen from immune drones instrumentally inseminated into Salisbury queens?
4. Are my Varroa able to protect their hosts from their harmful form of DWV by passing on only their protector virus. After all, we are not yet sure how the immune virus developed.
5. Immunity may possibly be passed on simply by uniting a package of my workers with a similar number of Salisbury workers.
The above tests are only some of those we have in mind. Some, even if deemed to be unsuccessful by the virologist will be replicated with some variant. Any deemed successful will be replicated often to establish consistency of results.

This may or may not answer some of your questions but I thoroughly recommend going to one of Ron Hoskins' presentations if you can. I'm sure you'll find it interesting.

CVB

 

[Fusion_power]

The main flow starts in about 5 weeks. Regular flights and pollen collection started the last week of January which is about 2 weeks earlier than normal. It is now the 2nd week of March and most of my colonies are building toward swarm strength. I checked 2 of the strongest colonies today and found double Langstroth brood chambers nearly at capacity and brood in 7 to 8 deep frames. There is abundant drone brood in both colonies, but only one has flying drones. Neither colony has started swarm cells though both have cups built. One of the colonies exhibits strong VSH traits, the other strong allogrooming. Both are on my list to requeen this year because of queen age.

I decided to see just how much drone brood has to be uncapped to find a varroa mite. After uncapping 127 drones, I found one mite. The colony I found it in is a pure Carpenter queen from Carpenter Apiaries. Mite tolerance is not quite as good in the Carpenter bees as in my line, but early spring buildup is faster and honey production is good to very good. Carpenter bees tend to be strong allogroomers. This particular mite was probably overwintered and was beginning its first reproductive cycle in the drone cells. There is no way to track the source of the mite, it could have overwintered in my colony, or it could have been brought in by a forager.

So what does 1 mite in 127 capped drone cells work out to? I estimated there were 1500 drone cells in the colony. That is about a dozen mites total. I can't state that this represents all the mites in the colony, there could still be some in the worker brood. As per B+, I took time to diligently search newly emerged cells for the telltale white spots from mite infestation. There were no detectable white dots anywhere in the worker cells. I inspected 3 frames of worker brood each of which had at least 20% recently emerged cells. I wore glasses with magnification lenses to ensure nothing was missed. I also looked carefully for under size workers or any workers with deformed wings and found none in either colony.

No treatments have been used on my bees in 11 years. Conventional wisdom says they should have died years ago.

I will be doing spring inspections on a dozen colonies tomorrow and will carry a camera so I can take a few pictures.

 

[B+.]

So what does 1 mite in 127 capped drone cells work out to?

The idea is that you do a natural mite drop over 3*1 week periods at the start of brood rearing (I usually aim for calender weeks 12-15). This 21 days = the development period from the worker egg being laid until it emerges and it provides an initial assessment of the infestation. You perform other tests later in the year to establish how the colony controls the mites relative to the start of the test period.
You can read more about this on the Coloss website http://coloss.org/beebook/II/varroa/4/2

 

[mbc]

Conventional wisdom says they should have died years ago.

They have died, many times, conventional wisdom merely dictates that the turnover of untreated bees is quicker, leading to greater colony mortality, and I bet it has been.
That relatively isolated populations of bees survive despite varroa is no secret, they still have occasional crashes, and when those bees are moved into a different pressure situation they're often hopelessly unproductive.
Just because some locations and bees are in a fortunate situation and have reached an equilibrium with the varroa and virus populations there, it is no reason to dismiss all conventional wisdom on varroa management gathered over years by good beekeepers and observers.

 

[pargyle]

Just because some locations and bees are in a fortunate situation and have reached an equilibrium with the varroa and virus populations there, it is no reason to dismiss all conventional wisdom on varroa management gathered over years by good beekeepers and observers.

I'm no evangelist for treatment free but today I've been to the SE Hants Bee convention where John Haverson was talking about being treatment free since 2009 (albeit in his Warre Hives) but he does exactly the same as I do (albeit with my Paynes 14 x 12 Polys) and then I went to a workshop with Melvyn Apslett who has been treatment free for nearly 10 years who has conventional hives (Jumbo Langs with insulated crown boards and no draughts but mesh floors). Although his workshop was about swarm control we ended up talking about his bees and being treatment free.

There was a lot of interest from the audience. Although there is clearly a mix of factors involved the key is obviously the ability of some bees to survive and thrive alongside the mites and to have colonies that are derived mainly from those that demonstrate an ability to survive. The genetics from the queen and her matings are obviously critical.

The things we can do to assist them is simply to provide an environment in which they can control hive conditions to suit what they want, allow them to create their own queens from local survivor stock and let them live on the honey they provide for themselves - feeding only when there is an essential need.

It is encouraging that more and more people are treading a path to successfully keeping bees without recourse to treating for varroa .. yes, there will be colonies that will not cope without treatment - but the question is - are these the bees that we want for the future of beekeeping in the UK ? Should we be asking the BBKA to determine where there are beekeepers with surviving treatment free colonies and see if there are geographical considerations as well as the other factors ?

 

[B+.]

Should we be asking the BBKA to determine where there are beekeepers with surviving treatment free colonies and see if there are geographical considerations as well as the other factors ?

Hold on. Rewind and run that by me again. Are you really suggesting that the BBKA can be trusted with this?

 

[Fusion_power]

Interesting thoughts, particularly the part about dismissing conventional wisdom. I dismissed conventional wisdom when I went treatment free in 2005. Had I followed conventional wisdom, I would still be pumping chemicals into my colonies on a routine basis. I submit that ditching conventional wisdom is the first step to beating the varroa invasion.

I finished spring inspections on my last 5 colonies today. Four were medium to well built up but decidedly aggressive. This was expected given a gray drizzly cool day. One colony is a star performer from last year that looks set to repeat this year. It was in a 2 1/2 deep setup with at least 100 pounds of honey last fall. I removed the shallow super and swapped upper and lower Langstroth deeps to get the brood nest on the bottom. There are 7 frames very full of brood. This colony has a queen purchased from Carpenter last April. It made a tad over 100 pounds of surplus honey in 2015. There are no signs of varroa infestation though I am certain that I would find a few mites if I looked very close and pulled drone brood. This colony is one of the best breeding prospects I've seen in years. This colony is very gentle with no stinging despite an unfavorable day, the bees are highly prolific, and they produced an outstanding honey crop. My current plans are to raise queens and mate them with drones from my line. I've had excellent results doing this over the last few years. With the cross, honey production tends to increase, wintering is better, and mite tolerance tends to be excellent.

 

[B+.]

This colony has a queen purchased from Carpenter last April.
My current plans are to raise queens and mate them with drones from my line.

I wouldn't call this a line since you have no control over the drones (which, being haploid, inherit all of their genetic material from their "mother") and you frequently bring in new queens which you have no control over.

 

[pargyle]

Hold on. Rewind and run that by me again. Are you really suggesting that the BBKA can be trusted with this?

Yes ... I know ... I'm as cynical about the ability and objectives of our national association as anyone but there is not another body within beekeeping that could pursue such a study ...

It surpised me, yesterday at the convention, at just how many beekeepers I spoke to were saying that they were either treatment free or only treating when it appeared to be absolutely essential .. many are just doing OA trickle in the winter and a lot are giving the more traditional 'chemical' treatments a rest. So, the BBKA needs to catch up with the trend and start looking at what they can do to help.

What did surprise me was a lot of blank looks when I talked about OA Sublimation - I get so used to seeing it talked about on here regularly that I tend to forget that the vast majority of beekeepers still use methods that rely on varroacides and many have never heard of OA by sublimation (or, if they have, they discount it as too difficult, too dangerous, too expensive for the initial equipment or probably now ~ as a result of the OA 'banning' ~ illegal).

I would consider it an immense step forward if local associations started to take a lead by encouraging members to use OA sublimation as a halfway house to becoming less reliant on what I consider to be more invasive treatments.

 

[Hivemaker.]

.. many are just doing OA trickle in the winter and a lot are giving the more traditional 'chemical' treatments a rest. So, the BBKA needs to catch up with the trend and start looking at what they can do to help.

Always nice to hear of trends like this.

 

[pargyle]

Always nice to hear of trends like this.

Always nice to have comments from Trendsetters Pete ... you lead the way, others merely follow.

 

[bjosephd]

OA is not a more traditional 'chemical' treatment (as I read above).

Where does thymol/apiguard fit in? Non 'chemical'?

Can OA sublimation and/or a spring/autumn apiguard treatment be thought of as a step towards treatment free? At least not 'chemical varroacides'?

Was tempted to chuck in some apiguard in a week or two just so I don' shoot myself in the foot for my first full season.

BJD