VSH Bees

[Erichalfbee]

This is a simple question from a simple person......me.
I was talking to a beekeeper in California and she says that she, along with most beeks she knows, uses Hygienic bees and few treat. Could this be so? Is she having me on.

"everybody uses them, you know"

I've had a look around starting with this lot
http://www.glenn-apiaries.com/vsh.html
I 've read here that a lot on the forum consider hygienic bees a myth. What is the status quo here in the UK?

 

[BeeJayBee]

There isn't a status quo here in the UK, at least not yet, but I think a lot of people are quietly moving away from 'routine' treatment at a particular time of year and are reacting to what they see in their hive.

Some people treat and try to destroy varroa, others don't treat and are aiming to have mites and bees live together. Some researchers are looking at 'hygienic' traits by killing brood and seeing the proportion of dead brood that's removed, others are looking at the viruses and trying to find how we can use this very new information.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks BJB
I'm aware of a lot of that.
I might PM Michael Palmer and see if there is any truth in the panaceaic (sic) properties of VSH bees in the USA

 

[sipa]

You might want to check this out.

http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/hygienic-bees/

The Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group (SHCG) is based in North Wiltshire. We have achieved major successes in breeding honeybees that are able to live with, and survive, the Varroa mite which is currently devastating the honeybee population throughout most of the world.

 

[Swarm]

I might PM Michael Palmer and see if there is any truth in the panaceaic (sic) properties of VSH bees in the USA

I think there'd be a very rich beefarmer if it were the case.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I think there'd be a very rich beefarmer if it were the case.

Yes indeed. The lady beekeeper I was talking to, when nailed down, says she still treats.

 

[Erichalfbee]

You might want to check this out.

http://www.swindonhoneybeeconservation.org.uk/hygienic-bees/

The Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group (SHCG) is based in North Wiltshire. We have achieved major successes in breeding honeybees that are able to live with, and survive, the Varroa mite which is currently devastating the honeybee population throughout most of the world.

I have already, thanks.
My issue was that the sale of VSH bees is quite widespread in the USA and I was not convinced of their value.

 

[REDWOOD]

All bees are hygienic,it's part of their makeup, if they are not hygienic there is something obviously wrong with them.

 

[For want of a better word]

Varroa you can ( almost ) see and sucks the bee's haemolymph for dinner.

The Virus that Varroa can carry, and can not be ( easily) seen is the problem!

We can control Varroa in our colonies... to lend the poor honeybees a hand... but not the spread of ( imported) viruses it seems.

Yeghes da

 

[mbc]

My thoughts on vsh bees and the rigorous work put in to breeding them is hats off in admiration, and to any knockers or belittlers then spare a thought for all the hard, arduous and painstaking work that goes into monitoring, assessment and selection.
I wish there was more top quality work being done with our own bees in Britain.

 

[For want of a better word]

My thoughts on vsh bees and the rigorous work put in to breeding them is hats off in admiration, and to any knockers or belittlers then spare a thought for all the hard, arduous and painstaking work that goes into monitoring, assessment and selection.
I wish there was more top quality work being done with our own bees in Britain.

Small groups are working on our British Native honeybees and from what I have read it seems there is some progress being made.... but difficult due to the insistence of some nere do wells of importing bees with what may just be new and novel virus!

About time some of the massive EU funding that seems to going to the various Quango organisations that abound, was given over to funding things that matter!!

Yeghes da

 

[Swarm]

Better hope we stay in then, Thatcher was happy for us to eat foreign honey so I doubt there'd be much funding.

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Swindon Honeybee Conservation Group

I've just arrived back from the Holsworthy Bee Convention in sunny Devon and one of the speakers was Ron Hoskins of the SBCG. He has not used chemicals for 20 years , his bees groom mites off and pull out infested/infected brood and he has the records to prove it - his best colonies damage 80+% of the mites found on the monitoring board.

An academic virologist from the MBA in Plymouth identified a possible mechanism whereby the Swindon bees survived (superinfection exclusion) but it was not suggested how the bees' behaviour came about - but the fact remains that this amateur but very experienced beekeeper has bred a group of bees that have survived 20 years with NO CHEMICALS. Other beekeepers in the Swindon area have his "hygienic" bees and he's hoping for a hygienic bee island in and around Swindon.

Unfortunately, because he is not academic, Ron has difficulty getting money for the next step of his research - linking the hygienic behaviour that he has recorded with the various types of virus the MBA virologists have identified in his mites and bees - or even if there is a link. He has a virologist lined up to work with him but he needs some money to pay him. Donations or sponsorship wanted!

Read the website and make up your own mind!

CVB

 

[REDWOOD]

Can I see the footage of the bees taking the mites off please.
I'll say it again all bees are Hygienic, all bees groom each other and if a mite falls off perhaps its a dead one.
Have you ever watched bees laden with pollen including their bodies entering a hive and leaving nice and clean......... I wonder what happened there then.

Honey bees have few genes for their own individual immune function for resistance to diseases, it may be that their resistance comes through cleaning, grooming medicating - rather from innate immunity. It's what they do

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Can I see the footage of the bees taking the mites off please.
I'll say it again all bees are Hygienic, all bees groom each other and if a mite falls off perhaps its a dead one.
Have you ever watched bees laden with pollen including their bodies entering a hive and leaving nice and clean......... I wonder what happened there then.

Honey bees have few genes for their own individual immune function for resistance to diseases, it may be that their resistance comes through cleaning, grooming medicating - rather from innate immunity. It's what they do

You are right, of course - bees do groom themselves and other bees but varroa hide in plain sight but disguise their presence by mimicking the scent of the bees so somehow the SHCG bees are able to detect them and groom them or pull them out of infected/infested brood cells when other bees do not do this. Ron Hoskins has video of bees biting at a mite hiding between the thorax and abdomen of a bee, following and unusual "clean me" waggle dance. He also has video of bees removing a varva from a brood cell. I saw both videos during Ron's presentation to the Holsworthy Beekeepers' Convention on Saturday. I'm sure if you wrote to him, he'd send you the movie file.

Ron has colonies that chew 80% of the mites dropping out of the hive - he and his colleagues go to a lot of trouble to gently remove all mites from the monitoring boards and look at them under a microscope to determine whether or not they have been chewed. The most common damage is dented carapaces but legs and feeding tubes are also seen removed. I've tried to do such monitoring and the best I found was about 10% of damaged mites. He has achieved high hygienic levels by breeding from the queens whose colonies show high levels of mite damage. He started 20 years ago and has not used any chemicals in that time.

His website indicates that he's selling his queens in a six frame Kieler Queen Mating Mini Hives for £31 (which seems cheap to me) - he needs the income to extend his research with a virologist on board. Because he is not an academic, the usual sources of research funding are not available to him - he's just a very observant and thoughtful 85 year old beekeeper who wants to make a contribution to the craft he loves. He deserves our support.

CVB

 

[For want of a better word]

Just a point as when speaking to some beekeepers about the DWV types and Hygenic bees, there seems to be some confusion.

Some bees seem to be showing cleanliness by grooming/ biting Varroa mite and hence self eradicating the pest from their colonies.

Varroa mite are the VECTORS of a number of virally transmitted diseases... similar to the flea that carried the Black Death bacteria...
( The Rat that carried the flea is in my opinion analogous to the imported bee colonies)


The viral disease known as DWV ( Deformed Wing Virus) seems to have 2 varients...
Type 1... that shows up as the full blown disease, showing deformed bee wings.
Type 2... that seems to INHIBIT the mechanism that causes the bee to be infected with Type 1

The mechanism involved is different to the Vaccination against Smallpox, with the less virulent form of the Smallpox virus .. Cowpox.

( Dr Jenner notice that milkmaids who had Cowpox virus did not get Smallpox.... all long before viriology was even known!)


"Hygenic" bees that rid themselves of the mite...
and ones that are not showing symptoms of DWV are something completely different!


Although the two may not be mutually exclusive!


Mytten da

 

[charlievictorbravo]

Just a point as when speaking to some beekeepers about the DWV types and Hygenic bees, there seems to be some confusion.

Some bees seem to be showing cleanliness by grooming/ biting Varroa mite and hence self eradicating the pest from their colonies.

Varroa mite are the VECTORS of a number of virally transmitted diseases... similar to the flea that carried the Black Death bacteria...
( The Rat that carried the flea is in my opinion analogous to the imported bee colonies)

The viral disease known as DWV ( Deformed Wing Virus) seems to have 2 varients...
Type 1... that shows up as the full blown disease, showing deformed bee wings.
Type 2... that seems to INHIBIT the mechanism that causes the bee to be infected with Type 1

The mechanism involved is different to the Vaccination against Smallpox, with the less virulent form of the Smallpox virus .. Cowpox.

( Dr Jenner notice that milkmaids who had Cowpox virus did not get Smallpox.... all long before viriology was even known!)

"Hygenic" bees that rid themselves of the mite...
and ones that are not showing symptoms of DWV are something completely different!

Although the two may not be mutually exclusive!

Mytten da

There are now 3 variants of DWV identified by Declan Schroeder's group at the MBA;

• Type A, a full-blown virus that will kill bees,
• Type B, a variant that prevents Type A virus doing its worst,
• Type C, a variant identified in colonies that consistently had problems surviving winter and was found to be a virulent killer. I don't think it's known if Type B protects against Type C because the Type C was found at an apiary in Devon without Type B being present. (http://www.nature.com/ismej/journal/vaop/ncurrent/full/ismej2015178a.html#close)

The work that he did on Ron Hoskin's hygienic bees showed that the Type B in the bees and mites protected the bees from the Type A in the mites. The big question is what came first; the hygienic behaviour or the Type B virus? When Ron was breeding hygienic bees was he really breeding mites and bees with Type B DWV virus? Nobody knows the answer, which is why more research is needed.

The only mechanism that I can quess might be at work is that the Type B virus somehow allows the bees to detect mites that in other colonies would go undetected and therefore ungroomed. The grooming gets rid of most of the mites and the remainder cannot pass on the Type A virus because of the bees' Type B virus. That is pure speculation but something is making Ron's bees behave how they are behaving.

Buy one of his queens in a breeder for £31 and find out how it works for you!

CVB

 

[For want of a better word]

I would not import bees into my apiaries as I would not want to dilute the native genes in my bees....
However I think, with my limited knowledge of bee virus, that the virus in question may be quite closely related, ie type 1 ,2 and 3, the complexity of how the virus DNA can ?? alter proteins within the bee is quite astounding, if as suggested the type B virus is not only blocking the effectiveness of the type A virus, and causing the bees to be hygenic towards the varroa mite, then perhaps there may be an outcome of a mechanism to control both.

Unfortunately and realistically only of academic interest at the moment... would there be enough profit in it for one of the big pharmaceutical companies to invest £millions in the research?

Yeghes da

 

[Michael Palmer]

Thanks BJB
I'm aware of a lot of that.
I might PM Michael Palmer and see if there is any truth in the panaceaic (sic) properties of VSH bees in the USA

Been traveling in New Zealand, and don't often have internet. I think tonight I will be able to answer your question. Off to the east coast from Wellington....

Had a pig roast at the Camp Rangi meeting in Pohangina on Saturday. Stayed with a beekeeper who just received payment for 2 drums of high activity Manuka. NZ$26,000 per drum. Imagine!

Troubles in the Manuka kingdom though. Will be on the news soon enough.

 

[For want of a better word]

Is the NZ$ is worth about 10p so not that much!

Nos da