VSH Bees

[B+.]

When I raise the queens and mate them to my line drones, the resulting colony gains production and mite tolerance.

How are you controlling the mating?

 

[Fusion_power]

When I first got my bees established, I deliberately pushed them to swarm. I estimate between 40 and 60 swarms hit the woods in 2006 and 2008. 2007 gave a severe spring freeze that totally stopped all swarming and gave near zero honey. The end result is that I can mate queens in this area with near 100% of them being very highly mite tolerant. I routinely catch a few mite tolerant swarms from the woods. From 2008 until 2015, all I've done is split the best colonies to produce extras to sell and to make up for any losses. I rarely lose more than 1 or 2 colonies per year.

As noted previously, they have a strong swarming tendency which harks back to the original queen I found that was highly mite tolerant. In late fall 2004, I stood beside that colony on a cold day about 5C with the bright orange sun setting on the horizon and dozens of bees flying in from foraging on aster. There were 5 colonies in the apiary. Only that one colony was out foraging. It had so little honey I thought it would starve out before spring. What I found the next spring was a colony that wintered on the least honey I'd ever seen and was busting at the seams in early March with no sign of varroa. My last treatment for varroa was the fall of 2004. I did not use treatments in 2005 and got away with it because I raised queens from that colony. I would have run into inbreeding problems in a hurry if that one queen was the only source available for mite tolerance. I purchased 10 queens from Dann Purvis and used them to produce drones that were then used to mate the queens I raised. A few colonies died of mites over the years, never more than 1 in 4, always easily made up with splits in the spring. From 2010 until now, I rarely see any sign of mite damage in my bees. I have not treated my bees in any way for varroa in 11 years.

 

[B+.]

I have not treated my bees in any way for varroa in 11 years.

Thats great, but, without evidence from some sort of testing, it is just an anecdote. I think that is what Mike Palmer is saying.
Do you have this sort of information?

 

[Fusion_power]

I don't normally do mite counts, however, someone wanted to know what my mite counts were so I pulled a bottom board that had been cleaned on a known date. After 48 days, I counted exactly 15 dead mites on that bottom board. This was in early 2014. Here is a picture of that colony taken about the same time I counted the mites. http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/bees.2014.02.09.temp.46f.hires.2.jpg The colony was clustered pretty tightly at a temp of around 7C. Here is a pic of a colony taken 2 months ago on a sunny day at 10C. http://www.selectedplants.com/miscan/bee2016.01.02.1.50f.jpg

There are 4 beekeepers in this area who have my bees and have never treated for mites. One of them is trying to build up to about 50 colonies. I don't think he will make it this year, but he likely will get to 25 or 30. I'm going to raise a round of queens to help.

I lost every colony I had but one to varroa in the winter of 1993/1994. I had about 25 colonies of Buckfast bees that died that year. I split the one remaining colony into 3 using purchased queens and managed to get a small crop of honey. I treated those colonies and kept treating and rebuilding until 2004 when I found that single colony that was highly mite tolerant. I'm pointing this out so you will know that I've been there and done that and got the t-shirt with varroa.

Delving back further, I've been beekeeping since 1969 when I was 10 years old. I didn't get seriously into it until I was 13 and by the time I was 17, I had about a dozen colonies. At one point I was up to about 40 colonies which would have been in 1991. I am an engineer by profession and really don't want to turn my beekeeping hobby into anything larger. It is enough to help others get started with bees and know that they can do it sans treatments.

Yes, it is all just anecdote. But from where I sit, my bees are thriving and don't have to be treated for varroa. Can you say the same?

 

[B+.]

Yes, it is all just anecdote. But from where I sit, my bees are thriving and don't have to be treated for varroa. Can you say the same?

Actually, yes I can.

Perhaps I wasn't clear what I was getting at: The natural mite drop would give you an initial infestation level for the start of that breeding year. If you did further tests throughout the year (e.g. Liquid Nitrogen or pin-killed brood followed by an assessment of the number of completely removed pupa (at the red-eye stage, and, powdered sugar shake / alcohol / soapy water wash) this would give you an indication of relative mite hygiene over the period. If you did this several times for each sister colony mated to the drones from the same queen, you would have an indication of the genetic value of your stock. This is what I do.

The breeding values I got for Varroa last year (IB Celle 2014 test group) were:

6-1-500-2014 115%
6-1-595-2014 118%
6-1-1152-2014 108%
6-1-1197-2014 95%
6-1-1198-2014 106%
6-1-1218-2014 106%
6-1-1219-2014 108%
6-1-1220-2014 91%

These breeding values are a comparison against the sister group in a 5-year moving average as calculated by BeeBreed.

Did you do anything like this?

 

[Fusion_power]

No, I don't do anything associated with counting varroa. I check colonies and if I see one that has obvious signs of varroa, that queen gets culled. If I see even one phoretic mite, that is enough to get a queen culled. If I uncap a patch of drone brood and find more than 1 mite, that queen gets culled. I have not culled any queens since 2010 which should suggest that there are no obvious signs of varroa.

You are still working with bees that are susceptible to varroa. The bees I am working with are on the other end of the spectrum. They manage varroa with no input from me.

 

[B+.]

No, I don't do anything associated with counting varroa. I check colonies and if I see one that has obvious signs of varroa, that queen gets culled. If I see even one phoretic mite, that is enough to get a queen culled. If I uncap a patch of drone brood and find more than 1 mite, that queen gets culled. I have not culled any queens since 2010 which should suggest that there are no obvious signs of varroa.

You are still working with bees that are susceptible to varroa. The bees I am working with are on the other end of the spectrum. They manage varroa with no input from me.

Wow, thats quite an assertion. If you are only looking for phoretic mites, you might never see them (except by accident). I would suggest that you are killing queens unnecessarily which is a pity, because these queens might have some desirable qualities. although with only 14 colonies, you have nowhere near enough to do a valid test.

You'd be better off looking at the white fecal piles on the upper surface of the inside of the cells. That is a sure sign of reproducing varroa.

 

[Fusion_power]

I cull if I see a single phoretic mite because there is very low probability I will see a phoretic mite. There are a lot of mites if I see one so that queen gets culled.

I also cull queens if there are obvious signs of mite damage. Last June, I purchased 3 queens from Beeweaver to evaluate. One of the 3 has obvious signs of mite damage this spring with a few undersize workers and a few with deformed wings. There are other significant problems with the beeweaver queens therefore all of them will be culled as soon as I can raise new queens.

It does no good to look for white spots in the cells of my colonies. There are not enough varroa to be detected using this method. The only way I have found to actually find mites in my colonies is to pull drone brood. Sometimes I can find a mite or two by pulling drone brood.

Re number of colonies, I only have 14, but there are 4 other beekeepers in the area with my stock. In total, we have about 50 managed colonies that have never been treated for mites. I have no idea how many feral colonies are in the area, over the last 10 years, they have spread far and wide. I want them to keep spreading as a buffer so my bees breed true.

My bees represent raw material for a selection program. They can easily be selected for higher honey production and to be less likely to sting. They carry mite tolerance traits significantly higher than anything yet developed in Europe with the exception of John Kefuss stock. John got there several years ago.

I'm not making these statements lightly and not as a brag. I'm simply stating that my bees have been put through the ringer to select for mite tolerance traits. They do not require any form of treatment for mites. They don't need mollycoddling. They do require a bit of work to prevent swarming.

 

[B+.]

My bees represent raw material for a selection program. They can easily be selected for higher honey production and to be less likely to sting. They carry mite tolerance traits significantly higher than anything yet developed in Europe with the exception of John Kefuss stock. John got there several years ago.

How can you say this if you don't evaluate the mite count (re post #64 & 66)?

 

[Fusion_power]

Because they are alive. Because they are not getting whacked by some virus spread by mites. Because the only differentiator needed is to know that any mite susceptible colonies will surely die and take themselves out of the gene pool.

If your bees were left for 2 years with no mite treatments of any sort, how many of them would be alive?

 

[B+.]

If your bees were left for 2 years with no mite treatments of any sort, how many of them would be alive?

Barring accidents - probably all of them. You have clearly forgotten that I haven't treated my bees since the mid-90's.
Nothing that you have said makes me feel your bees are anything different to anyone elses and you have provided no evidence to back up any of your claims.
Far from being the "raw material for a selection program", my bees are actually PART OF a selection programme.

 

[Fusion_power]

Paul, I don't forget. I ask leading questions so you or I can post something informative.

My bees are not some magical end state, they are an in-between phase. They tolerate mites and still have all the required traits of honeybees. I hope in time to see all beekeepers using mite tolerant stock. Perhaps in a few years we will have mite tolerant Buckfast and mite tolerant Carniolans on the market. For now, there are very few choices that allow a beekeeper to get off the treatment bandwagon.

 

[mbc]

Dear god the hubris in this thread.
The acid test for resistant bees is if they can be parachuted into an area where bees struggle to survive without treatment and seeing how they do then, without this there could be all sorts of factors at play other than mite resistant bees.

 

[B+.]

The acid test for resistant bees is if they can be parachuted into an area where bees struggle to survive without treatment and seeing how they do then, without this there could be all sorts of factors at play other than mite resistant bees.

That would make them "immune" rather than "resistant".
In chapter 5 of "Breeding super bees" by Steve Taber, he talks about Rothenbuhlers description of "hygienic" bees. These are effectively the same tests used in BeeBreed/AGT except that the durations for removal of the dead pupa is much shorter (8-12 hours instead of 1-5 days). He also talks aboout the necessity for breeding stock to be registered and their breeding to be controlled in a closed population.
I'm not sure what other factors you're referring to

 

[bjosephd]

Personally i find this thread interesting despite it's slight duelling nature.

I'm amazed to see treatment free beekeepers 'arguing' when the argument is normally between treatment vs non treatment approaches.

B+ didn't realise you were treatment free... what - in a nutshell - is your approach/methods to help the bees compete with the little critters? Predominantly working on your stock? Or other management methods? What do you do that you feel contributes to your many successful years of non treatment?

ADMIN... is there a potential argument for having a 'treatment free' section on the forum? Please.

BJD

 

[pargyle]

ADMIN... is there a potential argument for having a 'treatment free' section on the forum? Please.

BJD

Best have a Cordon Sanitaire around it then .... could get very heated ...

 

[bjosephd]

I think when talking about bees that are succeeding treatment free it would be great for those discussing and those 'listening' to define the terms/vocabulary.

It seems that much of the argument of this thread has been, to some degree, due to speaking cross purpose.

For example if one is talking varroa count and another varroa tolerance then these are two distinctly different attributes both in their own ways contributing to treatment free success.

Maybe agreeing on the exact meaning of the following terms would help us all in order to help further discussions.

Resistance
Tolerance
Immunity
Hygienic behaviours
Mite load
Etc (any others?)

The thing is if your bees have phenomenal tolerance or immunity, then the mite load in a way is irrelevant... but if your bees are amazingly hygienic and groom/shed all mites, then they might not need the tolerance or immunity if the mites are already ejected.

And of course... what is the (agreed) measure of treatment free success? (this one is tricky since requirements are very different for commercial keepers, hobbyists, or even feral colonies at large)

BJD

 

[bjosephd]

Best have a Cordon Sanitaire around it then .... could get very heated ...

Loving your vocab pargyle!

Indeed... that's kinda why I thought a Treatment Free section in the forum could act as such.

Then hopefully the discussion of pro or anti treatment free can stay in the main forum rather than invading a section dedicated to the development and discussion of TF approaches and techniques.

 

[pargyle]

Loving your vocab pargyle!

Indeed... that's kinda why I thought a Treatment Free section in the forum could act as such.

Then hopefully the discussion of pro or anti treatment free can stay in the main forum rather than invading a section dedicated to the development and discussion of TF approaches and techniques.

Well I actually quite like the idea ... we non-treaters are in the ascendency and for some of us it's working. Unfortunately, there are still a fair few beekeepers who believe that bees will die if they are not treated and that everyone who has treatment free colonies is a danger to every other beekeeper in the vicinity ... words like 'varroa breeder', 'downright irresponsible', 'let alone guy', 'bee killer', have all been applied to me at one time or another - here and elsewhere.

It's quite an emotive subject and in the past has brought about some really personal arguments that don't do anyone any favours.

I've watched this thread with interest and I hope some other non-treaters add their views in due course - as you rightly point out there are a number of ways in which bees can accommodate mite infestation and we don't yet understand even a tiny percentage of what is going on when colonies survive without treatment - in my case in the middle of a beekeeping area where mite loads are often high ...

It makes little sense to me.

 

[Fusion_power]

Unfortunately, there are still a fair few beekeepers who believe that bees will die if they are not treated and that everyone who has treatment free colonies is a danger to every other beekeeper in the vicinity ... words like 'varroa breeder', 'downright irresponsible', 'let alone guy', 'bee killer', have all been applied to me at one time or another

I was told in no uncertain terms to keep my bees at least 7 miles away from a certain poster - who happens to live at least 700 miles from here - because they did not want my mite ridden bees near their treated poster children. I just laughed and told them that 7 miles was nearly far enough to keep their mite bombs from shedding mites all over my clean mite free bees. That did not sit well with the particular bee-treater.

I learn the most from the person who argues with me the longest and the hardest. My grandfather and I had an argument that lasted about 10 years. At the end, we had both switched positions and were arguing the opposite of what we started. It was hilarious in a way because I knew that we had swapped, but he never realized he was arguing the opposite. Still, it was a good way to have an interesting conversation with a man who had a lot of good stories to tell.

Resistance - Any bees with behaviors such as VSH or allogrooming
Tolerance - Similar to resistance, but does not infer as strong or effective
Immunity - Total and complete resistance, I don't think this exists re varroa
Hygienic behaviours - VSH, brood cleanup and removal, propolis use, varroa grooming, etc
Mite load - how many have you got? Nearly undetectable mite loads are the objective of both treaters and treatment free beekeepers
Etc (any others?) - Entombers, bees who selectively trap the mites behind the cocoon killing it
Stacked resistance traits - what you get when VSH is combined with allogrooming and bees that observe naturally long brood breaks