Very high varroah load

[Mark Young]

Well ...

I just think that nature will either eventually strike a balance or they will die out - Darwin rules.
...............

So ... who has got it right ? It might take a few generations but the future of beekeeping has to be a return to less chemical interference ... IMO. Tin hat on ...

I hope so, because we sure as hell aren't solving the problem by breeding mites from survivor stock whilst destroying most of the other useful micro organisms within the hive.

But then again - just like everyone else, I don't have the answer and the Survival of the Fittest solution, although logical and undisputable is not something I imagine we (I) would have the resolve to see through.

For now I treat as necessary, and certainly would do as recommended in this case.

 

[Stiffy]

Interesting thread.
I treat my bees with OA and they entered the autumn/winter with very few mites. Having now been around my apiary sites, the isolated ones are doing very well and filling brood boxes as I might expect.
However, at one of the sites, which is coincidently close to a firm believer in bees developing the ability to fight back at varroa, 2 colonies have failed and some are very much reduced.
There is also very evident DWV in some. I am now treating again to hopefully bring them up to a state where they might survive and bring in a late crop.
Obviously there are a lot of variables and I had not even though of re-infestation to be honest. My thoughts were, when treating the warm winter caused me to miss certain hives at their lowest brood cycle and these are the ones now suffering.
S

 

[JohnRoss]

I Have to say that maybe the mild winter has something to do with it and possibly them still brooding through January. Also the Varroah walking around the brood frames is something to behold, gas anyone else seen this? they are amazingly fast and mobile. they were moving around almost as fast as a bee would walk across a frame. dropping into freshly laid egg cells then coming back out. I have never had an infestation like it. the worrying thing is that oxcalic trickling that seemed so effective over the last few years seems to have been ineffective across multiple hives.

 

[Beefriendly]

Fortunately not seen them walking around on a frame....but there is a Seeley video of one jumping onto a bee from a flower
https://honeybeesuite.com/varroa-mite-hitching-a-ride-staying-alive/
Deceptively agile little effers.

 

[Beefriendly]

The question is, what is "performing fine"?
Like Mike says, Non treatment group seem to be economical with the truth about their numbers in the spring.

The little work that has been done with feral non treated bees in France with colonies from Le Man and Avignon showed that when they were treated they brought in nearly 2x as much honey as the untreated controls. Living with varroa appears to be energetically expensive or detrimental to overall colony health.
Either way your honey yields suffer.
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00892292/document

 

[mazzamazda]

The little work that has been done with feral non treated bees in France with colonies from Le Man and Avignon showed that when they were treated they brought in nearly 2x as much honey as the untreated controls. Living with varroa appears to be energetically expensive or detrimental to overall colony health.
Either way your honey yields suffer.
https://hal.archives-ouvertes.fr/hal-00892292/document

I couldn't ageee more.

Without treatment I would lose all the hives within 6 months. I can definitely say other beekeepers cause some of my problems, they are so intent on a honey crop, if the bees survive it's a bonus. I've had colonies with massive mite loads only weeks after treatment, same treatment, same time, a few collapsed earlier in the year. This in my view can only be with other colony's collapsing and infecting my hives. I understand one bee can carry 12 mites absconding a collapsed hive. Huge numbers.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Oxalic by sublimation - no brainer - three treatments 5 days apart. Should knock the mite load back ...

I have tried and failed to find a definitive thread on this solution, on the forum.

I am interested in understanding the rationale. Thankfully not in a position of having to, yet.

Could someone direct me to the main discussion where it is explained in detail.

Many thanks in advance.

 

[fatshark]

Hivemaker posted that ... empirically determined but now repeated by many others (including me).

I suspect the best treatment regimen may depend upon the ratio of brood to bees and the rate the queen is laying at ...

 

[Stiffy]

Hivemaker posted that ... empirically determined but now repeated by many others (including me).

I suspect the best treatment regimen may depend upon the ratio of brood to bees and the rate the queen is laying at ...

I think this is the main problem with OA, especially with the warm winter we have just had. The temperature close to me means it is very rare for my queens to stop laying during the winter months but they usually slow as forage reduces.
As such, trying to time treatments when there will be little brood is often a matter of luck.
Indeed, some of the colonies that are not doing well now are ones that performed very well last year and suggests to me the queens were laying well 2016 and continued to do so into the winter. It could also mean they have run out of steam and varroa is a side issue!
S

 

[Tom Bick]

I Have to say that maybe the mild winter has something to do with it and possibly them still brooding through January. Also the Varroah walking around the brood frames is something to behold, gas anyone else seen this? they are amazingly fast and mobile. they were moving around almost as fast as a bee would walk across a frame. dropping into freshly laid egg cells then coming back out. I have never had an infestation like it. the worrying thing is that oxcalic trickling that seemed so effective over the last few years seems to have been ineffective across multiple hives.

This sounds more like tropilaylaps.

Can look similar to varroa and run around fast on the comb looking to dive into cells.

Worth looking up as you may get famous.

 

[Plenty of honey]

Evidence indicates that early season drifting and re-infestation is much less than late season or when there's a dearth of nectar. Whilst I certainly agree that locally infested hives can be a source of mites*, I'd be surprised if they'd all arrived this early in the season.

* I moved from a BeeBase 240+ apiaries to 26 apiaries in 10km and saw a huge difference in the ease of mite control ...

I see your argument but i think about it like this. Imagine a hive becomes queen less or goes in to a decline in late autumn(which is very often the case) when bees stop flying and mite transmission between hives slows down or stops due to very few bees flying for months. So imagine that hive in the early spring, still full of mites that havent been able to jump ship. Just as Mazamazda says in his previous post, lots of mites can the a ride on a bee at one time. Would it not still be possible for a rapid reinfection as a failing hive will lose its mites as quick as they can move on! were still finding out things about mites we never knew!

Interesting what you add about changing to scattered apiaries. It seems that this logic pays off in many sanitary ways, not just Varroa control. Other disease outbreaks may well be more isolated and easier to controls we already know!

Still, were all still doing what we all feel is right, personally if my cat had fleas i would (and do ) treat it, i keep bees, and i believe the bees i keep, cant survive well enough without treatment, so i treat them!
Anyone who dosent treat to help them (and after all its our fault they have Varroa) is bordering on Animal neglect.

 

[GaryB]

Anyone who dosent treat to help them (and after all its our fault they have Varroa) is bordering on Animal neglect.

 

[Uncle Betty]

Hivemaker posted that ... empirically determined but now repeated by many others (including me).

I know, thanks. Many references to it here and there on the forum, just would like to see any comprehensive thread. No joy so far !

 

[Beefriendly]

Anyone who dosent treat to help them (and after all its our fault they have Varroa) is bordering on Animal neglect.

It's akin to allowing your pet dog/cat to become knowingly infected with tapeworms and deliberately not treating them....based on the fallacy that because they are still alive it's obviously not doing them any harm. Or I'll treat them when levels get high enough that I can see varroa is causing damage.....rather than taking frequent preventative action to stop them ever getting high.
Doh!!

However, those who are seeking to develop VSH lines in strict breeding programs are spared this wrath. Although the end result of this will probably just be another set of queens that needs to purchased at frequent intervals as their VSH genes get diluted into the predominantly mongrel background.

 

[Plenty of honey]

It's akin to allowing your pet dog/cat to become knowingly infected with tapeworms and deliberately not treating them....based on the fallacy that because they are still alive it's obviously not doing them any harm. Or I'll treat them when levels get high enough to make them ill....rather than taking frequent preventative action to stop them ever getting high.

Doh!!



However, those who are seeking to develop VSH lines in strict breeding programs are spared this wrath.

I can't stop quoting His wisdom but it's because it's all wisdom that Mike speaks, like he says, VSH isn't the silver bullet, it's another tool! Just like VOA! Nothing is the cure but we all live in hope!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[madasafish]

I was on a farm lambing last weekend and the farmer there expressed the opinion that the sheep he rears for meat production would not survive without human intervention - on a whole raft of levels on a daily basis. Yet, I also know a farmer in Cumbria whose sheep probably only see him once a week and even then intervention is almost non-existent ... his sheep survive in the harshest of climates, over winter - fed if there is heavy snow, they lamb in the fields on their own, they have adjusted and are independent - and frankly they produce the best tasting lamb on the planet !

So ... who has got it right ? It might take a few generations but the future of beekeeping has to be a return to less chemical interference ... IMO. Tin hat on ...

Different breeds of sheep .

Some can lamb without human intervention. Other highly bread - may have 3 lambs - require human intervention or die lambing.




From my experience of non treating in a different climate to the sunnier softer south, harsher winters plus non treating = recipe for weak colonies in spring and death..

Seen too many earnest non treating beekeepers kill bees to support it round here.
Fortunately the non treaters tend to give up and good riddance say I.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I can't stop quoting His wisdom but it's because it's all wisdom that Mike speaks, like he says, VSH isn't the silver bullet, it's another tool! Just like VOA! Nothing is the cure but we all live in hope!

I've been talking to a friend in California.
She tells me everybody buys VSH bees and nobody wants to buy bees that have been "treated". Nucs from"survivor' colonies are sold as such. People buy them, don't treat them, lose them, then go back to the same supplier for more. She tells me that many hobby beekeepers are firmly on this treatment-free treadmill because they believe that not treating is the natural way and that all chemicals are evil. They consider supposed VSH bees as being immune to the effects of varroa borne viruses

 

[GaryB]

Only in America!!!
I lived in California for many years some while back, and they had the same mind set back then. But then again, Americans generally will tell you that Californians are weird...

 

[pargyle]

Well ... Much as I expected ... if my bees were riddled with varroa and showing signs of distress I would treat ... indeed, take the time to read my first post in this thread - I'm no tofu eating, sandal wearing, evangelist for everything natural. I just take the view that treatment should not be by rote ... we've been down that road and look where that got us ... mites resistant to treatment ... if bees can survive without assistance and thrive then what is there to hate in that ?

It takes a leap of faith not to follow the routine of treatment for varroa regardless of whether they are infested or not and it means that you have to monitor the varroa levels, properly. It's not an easy path to tread ...Am I concerned that my bees are causing other beekeepers varroa levels to rise ? Not at all ... there are very low levels of varroa in my hives ... I'm more concerned that those around me who treat and treatments appear ineffective (Viz: Post #1 ) are in danger of increasing varroa levels in my colonies.

I don't have an issue with people who treat their bees .. or what they treat them with - it's a personal and hopefully well considered choice - each to their own.

 

[Mark Young]

Routine treatments recommended by profiteering salesmen don't sit too well with me. (yeh, yeh, trust issues!)

The annual vet shots for example; they appear to have more and more evidence stacking against them that they are nothing but a billion dollar industry driven cash cow. Ever wonder why humans don't need a vaccine cocktail every year when they are the same live attenuated vaccines that get used across species..

I think with Varroa you should monitor, identify and act accordingly. Blindly treating to a general schedule isn't as hazardous as refusing to treat, but could probably be improved by taking into account local conditions and colony condition.

I started this game in my sandals, eating tofu whilst thinking I could go treatment free; funny how time changes you! Now I settle on the things I can control that have less risk attached to them such as cell size and rotating out contaminated comb.