Very high varroah load

[Beefriendly]

... there are very low levels of varroa in my hives ...

What levels do you consider low?

 

[pargyle]

What levels do you consider low?

Less than three a day mite drop on the boards on average, sugar rolls with about 100 bees yielding one mite or no mites, drone cell uncapping showing little or no infestation in the cells is what I consider low.

It's not always like that - I see rises and falls in the mite levels and occasional spikes in the mite drop on the boards that worry me - but if I see it I do a sugar roll and the results of those never seem to reflect the mite drop on the board. I can't explain that.

I continually monitor the daily drop of mites - my inspection boards stay in all the time but they are not immediately under the hives there is a drop of about 60mm from the mesh floor to the board.

But, there's more to it than just not treating the bees .. I'm foundationless, they overwinter on their own stores, my hives are highly insulated, the area I live in has a very mild microclimate, the forage around me is a very very mixed bag, the bees are local mongrels that are either the progeny of the original swarm I started with (several generations on now I would add) or susbequent local swarms. None of them have ever been treated with anything ...

There are so many factors that influence how bees live and survive and it's impossible to evaluate what effect any single factor has on the bees. My regime seems to be working but ... you just don't ever know what's around the corner.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Routine treatments recommended by profiteering salesmen don't sit too well with me. (yeh, yeh, trust issues!)

The annual vet shots for example; they appear to have more and more evidence stacking against them that they are nothing but a billion dollar industry driven cash cow. Ever wonder why humans don't need a vaccine cocktail every year when they are the same live attenuated vaccines that get used across species..

I think with Varroa you should monitor, identify and act accordingly. Blindly treating to a general schedule isn't as hazardous as refusing to treat, but could probably be improved by taking into account local conditions and colony condition.

I started this game in my sandals, eating tofu whilst thinking I could go treatment free; funny how time changes you! Now I settle on the things I can control that have less risk attached to them such as cell size and rotating out contaminated comb.

I applaud those who can go treatment free. It doesn't work for me but I do monitor regularly and use OAV only. Pargyle has worked very very hard to keep on top of mites. It's a full time job. My point was that buying vsh bees and sitting back doing nothing is not the answer. My two LASI queens have not done any better than the other colonies as far as mite numbers go but they have done considerably worse in production and have come through the winter much weaker

 

[Parsonage Bees]

With just one colony my preference for not treating is being severely tested. If they are going to die from a high varroa infestation I'm not going to achieve my aim this year of increasing my number of hives.

I'm seeing a daily mite drop averaging 35-40. With occasional counts over 60 on sunny days. Not noticed mites on the comb but have seen on crawlers outside the hive.

And I'm seeing DWV sufferers with different levels of deformity.

Not easy to witness.
The analogy is not with cats or dogs or sheep or gazelles but with the hedgehogs I have in the garden suffering ticks and lungworm. They need help sometimes but they handle it or they die.

OAV too expensive. Considering MAQS but worried about collateral damage.

. . . . Ben

 

[Erichalfbee]

Ben you need to do something now. There is no collateral damage if your hive is dead.

 

[Parsonage Bees]

Ben you need to do something now. There is no collateral damage if your hive is dead.

Agreed. I think you need to recognise imminent collapse and cull the colony before the mites jump ship.

. . . . Ben

 

[Stiffy]

Ben you need to do something now. There is no collateral damage if your hive is dead.

I would start treating asap or you will lose them

 

[Beefriendly]

Less than three a day mite drop on the boards on average,

We work to very differing levels of acceptable varroa numbers. If I see 3 a week on the notoriously inaccurate drop board I treat at the next window of opportunity.
Currently running at drop rate of less than one per week. That is the 2 current hives with boards in dropped 1 mite in a week between them.
These are double brood hives with up to 12 frames BIAS at the moment.

 

[colinc]

With just one colony my preference for not treating is being severely tested. If they are going to die from a high varroa infestation I'm not going to achieve my aim this year of increasing my number of hives.



I'm seeing a daily mite drop averaging 35-40. With occasional counts over 60 on sunny days. Not noticed mites on the comb but have seen on crawlers outside the hive.



And I'm seeing DWV sufferers with different levels of deformity.

Not easy to witness.

The analogy is not with cats or dogs or sheep or gazelles but with the hedgehogs I have in the garden suffering ticks and lungworm. They need help sometimes but they handle it or they die.



OAV too expensive. Considering MAQS but worried about collateral damage.



. . . . Ben

I don't have kit to vape but will invest this year. I had the same no mites seen last year but 1st inspection lots visible and DWV. Had MAQS and decided to use despite the horror stories. Visible mites gone, mite drops seem lower and some are obviously long dead (broken dull shells on them missing legs etc) but still only 1st week post treatment so monitoring. Queens laid through and hives doing better and less DWV seen already. I think the issues with MAQS are more prevalent at higher temperatures but that is my recent experience. Would have to think carefully before a summer or warm autumn treatment though.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

 

[Erichalfbee]

I would only ever consider MAQS a treatment to be used at a time of year a colony can re-queen themselves.
If I didn't have OAV I might get Apivar on prescription

 

[pargyle]

We work to very differing levels of acceptable varroa numbers. If I see 3 a week on the notoriously inaccurate drop board I treat at the next window of opportunity.
Currently running at drop rate of less than one per week. That is the 2 current hives with boards in dropped 1 mite in a week between them.
These are double brood hives with up to 12 frames BIAS at the moment.

You don't do any other mite measurement than the drop board ? Sadly, as you say, it does not usually tell the whole story ...

You have very good levels compared to what I have, it would seem, but if you are treating with that degree of intensity it's what I would expect.

OA by sublimation gives you a 97% knock down rate if applied properly and when I have used it on other people's bees (I know - it's not dual standards - they were hives that were in a serious varroa riddled state) and it appears kinder to the bees than any other treatments - and with little or no risk to the bees it would appear. I'm a fan of it .. but .. only if the colony is in need of assistance.

 

[Beefriendly]

but if you are treating with that degree of intensity it's what I would expect.

Not sure what you mean by "that degree of intensity" as you don't know what my treatment levels are; so how could you expect anything?.......
but I'll tell you anyway......my typical regime is possibly 2 vapes during the warmer months IF required (and yes I am aware it only affects the phoretic mites) and a definite 4 in the late autumn regardless of mite levels. Usually nothing in the winter unless for some reason a hive is showing exceptional drops.
I look at it like worming a cat, preventive; but hardly intensive.
Yes I occasionally do an alcohol wash, but with the number of colonies not practical to do all of them as it's quicker to treat them.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes I occasionally do an alcohol wash, but with the number of colonies not practical to do all of them as it's quicker to treat them.

An alternative is an accelerated mite drop....using OAV instead of sugar. Then you would know which colonies to continue to full treatment

 

[mbc]

There are other more persistent ways of getting oxalic acid into the colony. Mixed with glycerine and soaked in cardboard has worked well for a (cough) friend.

 

[bjosephd]

I have a hive with loads of very poorly looking drones being dragged out dead or dying.

BUT a varroa drop of only about 1 a day.

Odd.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Natural drop is not a good indication of infestation.
Most of the varroa is in the brood

 

[pargyle]

Not sure what you mean by "that degree of intensity" as you don't know what my treatment levels are; so how could you expect anything?.......
but I'll tell you anyway......my typical regime is possibly 2 vapes during the warmer months IF required (and yes I am aware it only affects the phoretic mites) and a definite 4 in the late autumn regardless of mite levels. Usually nothing in the winter unless for some reason a hive is showing exceptional drops.
I look at it like worming a cat, preventive; but hardly intensive.
Yes I occasionally do an alcohol wash, but with the number of colonies not practical to do all of them as it's quicker to treat them.

You are occasionally very antagonistic, Unnecessarily so on this occasion ... what your original post said "If I see 3 a week on the notoriously inaccurate drop board I treat at the next window of opportunity. " if that's not intensive I don't know what is ? If I treated at that level I would be treating every fortnight summer and winter !

Four times a year is still quite a lot .... but I understand your reasoning. I only have 7 hives in the garden so I don't have constraints on my time ...

 

[bjosephd]

Natural drop is not a good indication of infestation.

Most of the varroa is in the brood

Yup, i've always argued that low drop numbers tell you that your bees:
A: got no varroa
B: got loads but aren't shedding them

A high drop means that:
A: your bees are infested
B: your bees are super hygenic and are great and shedding varroa

(P.s. I chucked some apiguard in, this particular hive are always slow to get going, so no chance of honey for a while)

 

[pargyle]

I have a hive with loads of very poorly looking drones being dragged out dead or dying.

BUT a varroa drop of only about 1 a day.

Odd.

That's because the mites are not dying from starvation - they will have had a nice fat feast of drone brood for a week or two ... might want to fork out a few drone cells and see how many have mites in them ... and if it's more than a few ... depending on whose standards of infestation you take ... get the varrox out !! 3 treatments .. one every five days to pick off the mites from the emerging drone brood.

 

[Beefriendly]

There are other more persistent ways of getting oxalic acid into the colony. Mixed with glycerine and soaked in cardboard has worked well for a (cough) friend.

Indeed, cough, splutter, say no more squire....It may well be a very potentially interesting treatment.
Theoretically that is (cough!) in the UK.