Upping the ante

[Wilco]

Pigs clearing ground is all about stocking density. If you want ground cleared you overstock compared to if you're doing a free range self sustaining system. Without buying lots of pigs this can be done with a small number by using mobile electric fencing and grazing small sections one at a time. This also means the forage lasts longer so you spend less on food.

Hens will pay for themselves in a couple of years depending on numbers and scale and how much you spend on setup. Setup for hen run is a few hundred pounds. Most decent laying breeds will lay 260-300 eggs a year. At £1.50 per half dozen, that's about £60 income per hen. Initially you will need to buy hens and laying often drops after the first year especially with hybrids so sone replaced hens. I pay about £13 for a commercial brown and £18 for slightly fancier birds like Sussex or marans. Let's assume £20 with annual replacement although with a cock bird you can do your own replacements free plus sell hatching eggs or rear birds to sell at a much higher value. Feed I currently get through a bag every 2-3 weeks at around £9 a bag for 9 hens. This is much reduced when free ranging. Let's say £1 a bird per bag at 25 bags a year so this works out as £25. That leaves £15 spare per bird per year worst case scenario, minus egg boxes and other bits and pieces. If you're selling to the public you'll want a larger number of birds for consistency and best have at least some commercial hybrids for eggs through Winter.

 

[rossbyjove]

James

A great picture, thanks James. Rather than start with veg I'd like to jump right in with animals, and have them do useful tilling, weeding and fertilising work that will take much of the effort out of productive bed making. I think fencing, electric fencing and manure might be the main capital items (and a planning application for a polytunnel). I'm thinking a couple of pigs, a dozen hens and a few geese to learn on might be a good start for the first year.

That year can be also used to get more infrastructure in place, chiefly the polytunnel, and a second enclosure.

With perhaps a 1/4 acre cleared, manured and fenced, I'd like to try the Mayan combination of maize, climbing beans and pumpkins - all good storing staples and useful animal feed to boot.

One of the main things I want to achieve is systematic soil improvement. I don't want to be barrowing compost about endlessly, I want to chuck waste at animals and have them incorporate it as much as possible.

Does that sound too daft?
[/QUOTE]
I suspect no matter what you do it will involve barrowing some muck/compost.
It would appear to be part of the process of growing food.
You may find the 'Mayan method' does not work in our climate.
I tried it and won't be trying it again.
Good luck.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I agree with your principles, but are you in Kent or are you where native Americans grew the three sisters? Aiming for what was grown in a totally different climate seems a bit contradictory to the rest of your ideas? Mirror the principle but with things that suit your climate, rainfall, soil, ph, tastes etc etc.
Also, have you grown your own carrots? I would not be eating horsefeed just because it's available compared to succulent little homegrowns!
You have a fairly focussed plan, how much of that is what the grandkids want to do, assuming involving them is part of that plan?

I was looking at Boston Seeds varieties of clovers yesterday, they suggest one at least I think for chalky soil.

Potatoes, tomatoes, beans... and hundreds of other plants grown by native peoples around the world (but chiefly South America) are successfully grown now in the UK. Clearly the folk who first grew them (and built vast cities on the back of their agriculture) had some good ideas about growing in poor soil.

I'm very used to making do. The less labour/cash I spend on unnecessary items, the more I have to invest in my projects. If you think about it, so many dishes are simply staple foods (easy to grow/best value in calories) dressed up with a few flavours and a touch of something expensive (meat). I'm not sure its easy to get home to those who are relatively well off how much relentless resistance to consume, and sound patient planning, are needed to move forward. Yes, I'd love to grow tasty carrots - but they are not top of my list of prioirties - raising the productivity of the land is.

My field is very rich in wild marjorum and a whole range of native herbs, and the sod has never been broken. Even if I thought it was a good idea, how would I get clover into the ground and established? The route is to pick an area to clean and have the work done by labour other than mine - pigs and hens. That way the ground is prepared, and nourished, while I get on with other productive things. Then the land can come into production and at the same time be improved by legumes and by the fibre of the mulches. If I get things right that will involve a day of seeding, and a day of planting and laying out the irrigation hoses. The other 363 days I can be setting up aquaponics and insect raising, buiding a new barn, making a planning application, seeing to my bees and customers and a thousand other things.

This is a learning process, of course - but I have to try things out. I'm just that sort of person.

 

[Beesnaturally]

If you're selling to the public you'll want a larger number of birds for consistency and best have at least some commercial hybrids for eggs through Winter.

The idea is to (raise fertility in order to) be able to feed an extended and growing family, rather than try to sell to the public - but one of the nice things about all this is you never know where it may lead. That said, being an egg farmer wouldn't be my first choice of occupation.

 

[Skinfaxi]

Hello growers
Peaple seem to trivialise food production like its a job for morons.
You need your calender to plan your crops. You need to know how to save time and energy by a good permaculture plan. You cant just over sow or spend not be efficient with your quantities.
Mixing the beens etc is maby ok But when it come to watering and harvesting you will be all over the show and likely damage your cucurbits.
Keep things as simple and even as possible.
I have been a grower for many years .i know my crops and what they need.Like with bees experience and an attempt to improve is important.
Remember to be food independant you need to get this right. planning your quantities cropping dates ,harvest ,post harvest prep and then storage or preservation.
Have a look at Elliot Coleman, Bill Mollison. jean martin the market garder.
What aspect is your land ,what soil do you have ,what is the structure like etc etc etc. Then also know your pests and what to do. Look at Real Seed companie website on how to grow for seed. Very important. Also read what they say about seed rights and new EU Laws about open pollinated seed regulations.

Get your self decent proper grow manuals and study them. Also the right tools


Growing is an art and science and most of all Hard Bloody work. So good luck all the best and happy growing.

 

[alancooper]

With energy costs lifting it seems without end, and commensurate food and fertiliser prices in lockstep, I think the economics of the traditional small mixed holding, with some new tech to assist, might come into its own. My first thought is that my soil is very poor (unimproved and unbroken chalk grassland). What are my best first moves?

Are the biodiversity/soil carbon loss consequences of cultivating your unimproved chalk grassland part of your decision making?

 

[Wilco]

The idea is to (raise fertility in order to) be able to feed an extended and growing family, rather than try to sell to the public - but one of the nice things about all this is you never know where it may lead. That said, being an egg farmer wouldn't be my first choice of occupation.

Not suggesting making it a large business but have enough hens that it becomes cost neutral/pays for itself.

Are the biodiversity/soil carbon loss consequences of cultivating your unimproved chalk grassland part of your decision making?

If managed well he could increase topsoil depth which would equate to carbon storage. Biodiversity... Small scale mixed crops vs. Financially supporting arable monocultures?

 

[JamezF]

It might be worth watching some of Richard Perkins' youtube videos. I think it's hard to overestimate the amount of work involved in a project such as this.

James

 

[Beesnaturally]

You need to know how to save time and energy by a good permaculture plan.

Mixing the beens etc is maby ok But when it come to watering and harvesting you will be all over the show and likely damage your cucurbits.

Keep things as simple and even as possible.

Also read what they say about seed rights and new EU Laws about open pollinated seed regulations.

Growing is an art and science and most of all Hard Bloody work. So good luck all the best and happy growing.

A good plan will (for me) include elements of permaculture

Watering plan is point hose irrigation.

Simple yes. But I don't think systematic complimentary planting is too far outside that. I'm not planning to stumble about. But... we'll see how it works out -
when we get there!

Art and science yes: the main aim for me is to raise the maximum number of calories with the absolute minimum amount of Hard Bloody Work

 

[Beesnaturally]

Are the biodiversity/soil carbon loss consequences of cultivating your unimproved chalk grassland part of your decision making?

I am preserving 9/10ths of the chalk grassland, and have planted 100 m or so of mixed native hedging. Around a further 1/10th has been enclosed to 're-wild' and is doing so magnificently. I also own and work a few acres of SSSI coppice. Feeding an extended family from locally grown food with zero inputs ought to help with carbon emissions, as will solar pv and direct solar. I imagine that answers your questions?

 

[Beesnaturally]

Not suggesting making it a large business but have enough hens that it becomes cost neutral/pays for itself.


If managed well he could increase topsoil depth which would equate to carbon storage. Biodiversity... Small scale mixed crops vs. Financially supporting arable monocultures?

Spending time extending and improving my honey business would be a better investment in time and effort - and there is more where that came from!

 

[Beesnaturally]

It might be worth watching some of Richard Perkins' youtube videos. I think it's hard to overestimate the amount of work involved in a project such as this.

James

I'll put these on my list of things to look at - thanks.

My personal project involves very carefully minimising the work Don't forget I already run 60 or so hives, and constantly build up infrastucture, attend to sales and so on - and on - alone. But longer term I'm hoping my son and his family will join me - he has the muscle power (and the computer know-how).

I've found the secret to building a business like mine is good planning, and a little every day on top projects. Let time do the things time can do. Magically, over time, it comes together.

And do it right first time. I love using simple things I made 10 or 20 years ago that still function perfectly.

 

[Skinfaxi]

for

I'd say most of the work in no dig is shifting the compost, which isn't too bad if you can do it over a period of months. The first year is probably harder than subsequent ones. I've not actually spread the compost in my polytunnel yet this year because I still have the remnants of the early spring lettuces growing, so I'll do it once they're finally over -- the tomatoes and peppers won't mind if I spread compost around them once they've got tall enough.

Good planning is really helpful too if you're going to try to get two crops per year out of the same space. I'm still working on that one because I keep adding more stuff that I fancy growing, but I'll probably have some winter brassicas ready to go in once early crops such as peas are cleared away.

On the other hand it does allow some spontaneity. I have had more winter squashes germinate than I have space for in the main plot so rather than throw them on the compost heap I'm going to put some cardboard down around a tree or two in the orchard and cover it with a good depth of compost to make some round beds about 5' in diameter, planting them straight into that. I can probably go from grass to planted bed in an hour or two. I might even do several and use them as beds for plants I want to collect seed from.

James

Hello James

I have had the privilage to work in gardens that have had regular mulching and as much continuous crop cover for over 20 years. It is really good.. it has excellent structure and the top humic soil horison is deep. The colour is dark and is has loads of earth worms.
I am sure you will see and appreciate the improvements after a few seasons.
Just dont put contaminated stuff on.
Also i would say it is easier to mulch than pull weeds. And all the other benefits . The soil is a living breathing complex structure off fauna flora bacteria viruses. Amoebas gases exchange miniral pedons and polypedons etc.
Get your soil right and most things will be great.
Yours and other pictures of gardens on this thread look really good.
Grow on

 

[JamezF]

I have had the privilage to work in gardens that have had regular mulching and as much continuous crop cover for over 20 years. It is really good.. it has excellent structure and the top humic soil horison is deep. The colour is dark and is has loads of earth worms.
I am sure you will see and appreciate the improvements after a few seasons.

I'm hoping this will be the case. It's very easy to see the difference between the "improved" and "unimproved" soil here because the underlying geology is iron-rich shale giving soils that are naturally quite a red-brown colour. Unfortunately being pretty much on the top of a hill our soil is also quite shallow -- quite possibly no more than 18" to the rock where my plot is. I believe I'm already seeing an improvement in the amount of visible soil life such as worms, which is reassuring.

James

 

[Skinfaxi]

Also look wine cap stroupharia mushrooms in woodchip beds. Paul Stamets has talked about bees getting vital goodness from mushroom mycelium and the liquid that come from it. They are also good to eat.In hungary they use other mushrooms in the crop rotation. Oyster mushrooms kill and eat eal worms.
Like with freshly picked and cooked sweet corn is totally different cold storage maze. Fresh mushrooms are allot better than on the shelf.

 

[Skinfaxi]

Yes, I'm not sure I could deny that as a fair criticism

On the other hand some of the tangentially-related stuff in the book was quite eye-opening and certainly gave me pause for thought. In particular claims such as something like 15% of the world's population still having to "open defecate" (or "go behind a bush", as it were). And that we don't have the resources (particularly providing a sufficient supply of clean water, I think) for everyone in the world to be able to use a flushing toilet even if we could build the infrastructure to handle the sewage.

It did also make me start to wonder if we ought be looking to compost a few other things too. Like, err, dead people, for instance. I'd be quite relaxed about the idea of being composted when I die. Of course by that point I'd probably not be too worried about whatever happened, but it seems far more environmentally friendly than being burned.

James

Nothing like a nice deep long drop session deep in an african kaya garden.
Kids job to dig them out.
Then the nice cow dung thatch hut with baby blue pain or pink. Heaven

 

[Moobee]

Yes, I'm not sure I could deny that as a fair criticism

On the other hand some of the tangentially-related stuff in the book was quite eye-opening and certainly gave me pause for thought. In particular claims such as something like 15% of the world's population still having to "open defecate" (or "go behind a bush", as it were). And that we don't have the resources (particularly providing a sufficient supply of clean water, I think) for everyone in the world to be able to use a flushing toilet even if we could build the infrastructure to handle the sewage.

It did also make me start to wonder if we ought be looking to compost a few other things too. Like, err, dead people, for instance. I'd be quite relaxed about the idea of being composted when I die. Of course by that point I'd probably not be too worried about whatever happened, but it seems far more environmentally friendly than being burned.

James

My OH was horrified when I said I’d rather be composted than cremated!

 

[JamezF]

My OH was horrified when I said I’d rather be composted than cremated!

It's a strange thing. When you consider that many cells within our bodies are replaced every few days, weeks or months the idea that there's some physical form that is definitively "you" is hard to justify. And if one's body is mostly transient, who really cares what happens to the current "incarnation" at the point it stops functioning? (There are some incorrect claims that our cells are completely replaced every seven years. There's another that 98% of the atoms in our bodies are replaced every year. I don't know if that's accurate or not.) For me, the idea of being composted appeals because it "completes the cycle", in a sense: as much as possible gets returned to (somewhere similar to) where it started, whatever "where it started" means in this context.

I quite like the idea that some proportion of (the current) me might once have been part of a T. Rex, or perhaps a pharaoh or maybe even Galileo. Or a honey bee, perhaps...

James

 

[Erichalfbee]

My OH was horrified when I said I’d rather be composted than cremated!

Aren’t you composted if you’re buried?

 

[Moobee]

Aren’t you composted if you’re buried?

Not if you’re in an oak box pumped full of chemicals. Well eventually maybe but good compost only takes about 10 months….