Treatment Free

[pargyle]

No, but buggering them around with midwinter 'checkerboarding' treatment free or not is bound to have a detrimental effect on the yield.

Yes ... you know my view ... put them to be for the winter and apart from the occasional hefting and peering through clear crownboards let them be until spring. Ridiculous ... they go to great lengths to seal the hive up for winter and then some idiot comes along and tears their home apart at the coldest time of the year ... beggars belief as to where these ideas come from ?

 

[Cyfareddol]

I live in rural Wales where houses smallholdings and farms are scattered widely. Swarms still invade people’s chimneys, soffits and compost bins. They still bivouac under children’s trampolines and garden fruit trees.

I also live in rural Wales where we still have bees living in holes in trees. There’s a colony in Bodnant Gardens, been there for years. No inspections, no treatments and presumably they swarm.
Are they an asset or a liability?

 

[Speybee]

I also live in rural Wales where we still have bees living in holes in trees. There’s a colony in Bodnant Gardens, been there for years. No inspections, no treatments and presumably they swarm.
Are they an asset or a liability?

Depends if you get stung or not, should anyone accidentally stumble across them?

 

[john w]

yes, opinions rather than facts and going by what I can see from previous posts/threads the 'identical yields' in both cases probably equated to 'mediocre'

Wow so much negativity and supposition. I thought the whole idea of forums like this was to help share ideas and possibilities. We asked 30 beekeepers to get involved with this experiment. We gave each three colonies and tracked them monthly for a year. In detail! Instead of the swiping why not get in touch and I will share the results. My email is at the bottom of my BBKA News articles. Or better still come see what we are doing for yourself - my door is open. Contact details as above.

 

[seillean mil]

Two links to interesting articles aimed at beekeepers who have open minds and are prepared to consider that there may be valid evidence that bees can develop a tolerance to Varroa destructor if the conditions are right. The first abstract seems to be a translation (from German?) and is not in the most fluid of English prose; but it describes in some ways, a similar approach to that mentioned by @john w above.

The second article is more readable and has a very clear description of the way that untreated bees which survive, will quickly co-evolve with the mite to develop an equilibrium; that is not resistance, but a reduction in the potency of the mite and an increase in the resilience of the bee.

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10530-019-02001-0
https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/0005772X.2018.1431000

 

[Leigh]

From Randy Oliver's www.scientificbeekeeping.com (for those who haven't read his research, it really is worth having a good look). He has found (as many of you have) that mite resistant/hygienic bees do exist. The difficult bit is breeding from these stocks to get an improved strain - the quantity of hives that most of us would be trying this with are simply not enough....the task needs to be taken up by serious (1000 colonies +) queen breeders, and methods need to be very tight. As with any bloodline though, even if you get a line which works, the genetics quickly become diluted in the real world. Anyway, the whole site (it will take quite a while!) makes a very interesting and balanced read.

His article "walking the walk" outlines his real-world experience with trying to breed for mite resistance. Read the whole article, but one of his short term conclusions will hopefully ring alarm bells for some treatment free beekeepers: "Note to hobby beekeepers: I say this to make clear that beekeeper Jane or Joe Treatment-Free is dreaming if she or he think that allowing their colonies to die from lack of mite management is going to improve honey bee genetics overall. If they want to improve honey bee genetics, they’d do best to treat their hives to keep them healthy, but put pressure on whoever they purchase queens from to seriously select for mite resistance."

The above was taken from Selective Breeding for Mite Resistance: Walking the Walk - Scientific Beekeeping

The whole series of research into breeding for mite resistance is here: Breeding Resistant Bees Archives - Scientific Beekeeping

 

[Gardeners Beehive Guy]

Interesting. But what is really interesting is looking into and at who payed for many of these studies.

 

[The Poot]

Interesting. But what is really interesting is looking into and at who payed for many of these studies.

“Big pharma”???

 

[seillean mil]

If they want to improve honey bee genetics, they’d do best to treat their hives to keep them healthy, but put pressure on whoever they purchase queens from to seriously select for mite resistance."

The problem with that is that those bought-in queens will not possess any or all of the many other genetically-derived traits, both active and hidden, which play their part in your bees succeeding in your locality. You are still dependent on breeders outside your area and are not creating a sustainable apiary; admittedly, this enters a whole other area of debate.

The other issue is that once you have the more genetically resilient offspring, by continuing to treat the mites, you are still generating an evolutionary "push" in favour of more virulent strains of mite.

 

[Apple]

The problem with that is that those bought-in queens will not possess any or all of the many other genetically-derived traits, both active and hidden, which play their part in your bees succeeding in your locality. You are still dependent on breeders outside your area and are not creating a sustainable apiary; admittedly, this enters a whole other area of debate.

The other issue is that once you have the more genetically resilient offspring, by continuing to treat the mites, you are still generating an evolutionary "push" in favour of more virulent strains of mite.

One concern is that any packages of bees or possibly queens and little helpers that are being imported into the UK may be carrying little passengers who have slightly different make up to the varroa mite that is already in the UK.
Most certainly there are different genetic strains of EFB being mapped that follow movement of colonies.
Something touched on in one of the recent BIBBA webinar Zoom lectures.
20th Oct view recording “Resilient Honeybees” Grace McCormack
One wonders what the outcome would be if a similar vast amount of research and $$$ spent on developing a Covid 19 vaccine was spent on developing a solution to the varroa problem ?

Not holding my breath

Chons da

 

[Leigh]

Interesting. But what is really interesting is looking into and at who payed for many of these studies.

All I can see there is beekeepers amateur and professional, associations etc. Have I missed something?!

 

[Leigh]

“Big pharma”???

Maybe have a look and decide for yourself?

 

[seillean mil]

One wonders what the outcome would be if a similar vast amount of research and $$$ spent on developing a Covid 19 vaccine was spent on developing a solution to the varroa problem ?

I agree with your sentiment.

We can learn from the fight against C-19. We have seen restrictions of movement of the affected organism (us) and regular testing to see where the pathogen is prevalent.

I don't think there should be or ever will be enforceable legislation to limit international or intra-national movement of bees, but it's worth bearing in mind that the more we keep our bees to ourselves, the more likely it is that our bees will not be exposed to unfamiliar pathogenic strains.

 

[Murox]

I agree with your sentiment.

We can learn from the fight against C-19. We have seen restrictions of movement of the affected organism (us) and regular testing to see where the pathogen is prevalent.

I don't think there should be or ever will be enforceable legislation to limit international or intra-national movement of bees, but it's worth bearing in mind that the more we keep our bees to ourselves, the more likely it is that our bees will not be exposed to unfamiliar pathogenic strains.

So would that be a good thing or a bad thing regarding overall health and resistance ?

 

[North End Bees]

I don't think there should be or ever will be enforceable legislation to limit international or intra-national movement of bees, but it's worth bearing in mind that the more we keep our bees to ourselves, the more likely it is that our bees will not be exposed to unfamiliar pathogenic strains.

Whether there ever will be or whether there should be enforceable legislation to limit movement of bees are very different things.

We import queens from all over the place at present, packages and colonies a bit more restricted. (Not sure if EU will count as Third Country after Jan?)
Perhaps we should adopt New Zealand's level of bio-security. They seem to be managing to avoid varroa so far. (And did very well with Covid too.)

I believe we should have much tighter restrictions on the movement of livestock but I doubt it'll ever happen in this country. The decisions seem to be made by the big guys with a vested interest in free movement.

 

[Apple]

Whether there ever will be or whether there should be enforceable legislation to limit movement of bees are very different things.

We import queens from all over the place at present, packages and colonies a bit more restricted. (Not sure if EU will count as Third Country after Jan?)
Perhaps we should adopt New Zealand's level of bio-security. They seem to be managing to avoid varroa so far. (And did very well with Covid too.)

I believe we should have much tighter restrictions on the movement of livestock but I doubt it'll ever happen in this country. The decisions seem to be made by the big guys with a vested interest in free movement.

The decisions seem to be made by the big guys with a vested interest in free movement..
That would be the top heavy airline and travel companies that had over invested ... the outcome of restrictions on movement of packages of bees seem to be in the balance, but I can not see the destruction of whole fleets of Jumbo hives!

Norman Carreck made some comparisons with the Covid 10 Pandemic and the Varroa Pandemic. think it is still available to download
Tuesday 6th October at 7.30pm - Norman Carreck - Presentation: “Global pandemics, bee imports and native bees"

Chons da

 

[seillean mil]

So would that be a good thing or a bad thing regarding overall health and resistance ?

No, it obviously wouldn't be an entirely good thing to do over the longer term. But for any individual beekeeper or local beekeeping group, following a policy of actively increasing from whatever stocks of bees they already have, for four or five years without deliberate introductions, might be a positive course to follow.......???

 

[Boston Bees]

No, it obviously wouldn't be an entirely good thing to do over the longer term. But for any individual beekeeper or local beekeeping group, following a policy of actively increasing from whatever stocks of bees they already have, for four or five years without deliberate introductions, might be a positive course to follow.......???

Agreed. It's hard to make it work as an individual though (or even as a group). I don't ever buy queens or bees, but then when I get a call about a swarm in May, and go and collect it, the bees could be from anywhere, so my apiary ends up with a mix of local mongrels (which I want) and imports (which I don't really want) again. No easy answer sadly. I could turn all swarms down, but I feel like as beekeepers we have a responsibility to collect any swarm that we hear about in the area, to avoid our hobby getting a bad name.

 

[Murox]

No, it obviously wouldn't be an entirely good thing to do over the longer term. But for any individual beekeeper or local beekeeping group, following a policy of actively increasing from whatever stocks of bees they already have, for four or five years without deliberate introductions, might be a positive course to follow.......???

There are some big "if's " to consider though. If the traits you start off with are desirable; if you are able to control or at least strongly influence the drones in the area; or use I.I. and probably some other "if's" too. But most importantly there has to be the willing participation and cooperation of the other beekeepers in your locale.

 

[seillean mil]

There are some big "if's " to consider though. If the traits you start off with are desirable; if you are able to control or at least strongly influence the drones in the area; or use I.I. and probably some other "if's" too. But most importantly there has to be the willing participation and cooperation of the other beekeepers in your locale.

I agree with you on the gist of that, especially getting local co-operation. But I'm assuming that most of us love our current bees enough that, as with children (where applicable), we'll stick with what we were first given.

I'm postulating a low-tech approach; and using I.I., on the presumption that local drones don't have the right genes to offer, might mean that we lose more than we gain. Local drones rool ok!