Treatment Free

[user 819]

One needs to harvest drones rather then kill them esp from the best colonies/queens with desired traits, then one can try and improve any local area open matings.

Swarm beat me to it.

 

[Speybee]

Certainly from me as far as natural drop is concerned.
You can dislodge feeding mites with a fast acting miticide such as icing sugar or OAV
Watch this its an eye opener

Very informative to find out the mite is difficult to dislodge as it anchors itself by its feet, between the bee body ‘plates’ a bit like a sandwich filling, so perhaps casting a cloud over the process of icing sugar dusting.
Most important to find out that it is the bee liver aka fat body that the mite feeds on in the underside of the bee hence difficult to detect and that visual mite drops lulling us into a false sense of security.

What intrigues me was the link he made between purines in liver ( in humans the consumption of purines, from eating liver, eg. look 14 mins 30 seconds into the video) by varroa feeding on the bee liver aka fat body as I think there is more to this than meets the eye.

In humans there is also a link between developing gout and the taking of diuretics ( pharmaceuticals that remove water from your body by the process of diuresis) if any of you take bendroflumethazide for blood pressure, gout is mentioned in the patient leaflet....take a wee read of it, next time.

Where I am going with this.... is there a possible link between an agrochemical or vetirinary use treatments, which could possibly also be linked to the break down of the bee liver making it easier and quicker for varroa to get its nutrients and for colony collapse to rapidly occur?

I would love to ask him that should he ever come to Scotland.

 

[Speybee]

An all singing all dancing sugar role. Here’s another (home-made version):

Great video showing another method of the sugar roll method to detect varroa.
Watching this at 2 mins and 22 seconds, the beekeeper made an interesting remark that the mites would not be able to hold on to the bees due to the icing sugar.
Does this mean that dusting with icing sugar as I have been doing, helps reduce mites as they can’t hold on to the bees?

 

[Speybee]

Silly idea altogether but I suppose one that is easily dismissed when replacing queens on a regular basis. Drones? So easily overlooked as unimportant, we want more worker brood don't we? Drones don't make honey. Three extra days in a cell, varroa favour them, right let's use them as bait.
Good colonies now, mind. Bees to be proud of so rather than using these genes, they are culled? A couple of open matings later and the beekeeper is replacing queens because of poor temperament.
If you have gorgeous bees they have gorgeous drones so put in a frame or two of drone foundation and encourage them.

I think the point of using drones as ‘bait’ was to encourage the mite away from the nurse bees/ worker brood to break the cycle of varroa production.
I replace my queen bees regularly to prevent poor temperament, not because I have consistent bad temperament in my colonies.

It depends on what requires to be done for the greater good of your colony and which traits you as a beekeeper personally desire.
Mine has to be temperament and good hygiene, over volume of honey production.

Beekeeping for me is primarily pollination to increase the yields of my fruit crops.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Does this mean that dusting with icing sugar as I have been doing, helps reduce mites as they can’t hold on to the bees?

To be effective in removing mites you have to dust every bee as you see in a sugar roll. Thus means taking out every frame and dusting each side thoroughly. It’s very invasive.

 

[Speybee]

To be effective in removing mites you have to dust every bee as you see in a sugar roll. Thus means taking out every frame and dusting each side thoroughly. It’s very invasive.

Interesting viewpoint.
Perhaps invasive but would they not enjoy the sugar rush?

 

[Erichalfbee]

Interesting viewpoint.
Perhaps invasive but would they not enjoy the sugar rush?

It kills open brood

 

[Speybee]

It kills open brood

Thanks.
Even more interesting and starting to question using the icing sugar now.

 

[fiat500bee]

Thanks.
Even more interesting and starting to question using the icing sugar now.

Many of the "welfare" practises in beekeeping seem to involve killing or seriously disrupting the bees.

I've already experienced other contributors here making comparisons with our approaches to the maintenance of human health in order to weaken my arguments about not treating the bees. So perhaps it's pertinent to consider how we would feel if it was suggested that these crude and one-size-fits-all approaches to medication were used on humans?

 

[madasafish]

have just caught up..

Seems like modern research on varroa has never happened.

 

[Murox]

Silly idea altogether but I suppose one that is easily dismissed when replacing queens on a regular basis. Drones? So easily overlooked as unimportant, we want more worker brood don't we? Drones don't make honey. Three extra days in a cell, varroa favour them, right let's use them as bait.
Good colonies now, mind. Bees to be proud of so rather than using these genes, they are culled? A couple of open matings later and the beekeeper is replacing queens because of poor temperament.
If you have gorgeous bees they have gorgeous drones so put in a frame or two of drone foundation and encourage them.

Nicely put , points well made

 

[Madge]

Thanks.
Even more interesting and starting to question using the icing sugar now.

The bees in the sugar role will be fine, and the colony would probably enjoy cleaning them. But using icing sugar generally in the hive to get rid of Varroa ... Well, as Dani said, it kills open brood (I did not know that). You can sprinkle icing sugar on top of the frames. It may temporarily reduce the colony of some mites - just some. Apparently, for the mites, it will be like walking on ball bearings - so they lose their footing and fall down. But I don't think it's worth the effort, and nobody should be fooled into thinking they've treated the colony against Varroa by sprinkling icing sugar on the frames.

 

[madasafish]

The bees in the sugar role will be fine, and the colony would probably enjoy cleaning them. But using icing sugar generally in the hive to get rid of Varroa ... Well, as Dani said, it kills open brood (I did not know that). You can sprinkle icing sugar on top of the frames. It may temporarily reduce the colony of some mites - just some. Apparently, for the mites, it will be like walking on ball bearings - so they lose their footing and fall down. But I don't think it's worth the effort, and nobody should be fooled into thinking they've treated the colony against Varroa by sprinkling icing sugar on the frames.

I used to use Nicot cages for Queen Rearing. Most times the queen laid up all 80 spaces and there were 80 or so larvae when I wanted 10.
So a quick and humane way of killing the surplus was to sprinkle with icing sugar...

 

[john w]

That assumption - that you are breeding chemical resistant varroa - is based on using the same chemical over years.

Most sensible treaters mix treatments over years. . This makes breeding chemical resistant varroa much more difficult.

Honey yields per hive treated vs untreated would be useful to make the debate more useful. Since I have not seen any so far, I assume they are unfavourable to non treaters.

No one has suggested we stop malaria treatments of humans and breed malaria resistant humans. But based on the logic behind non treatment, that is what we should be doing.. and smallpox, covid -19, syphilis,etc..

Honey yields = no difference at all. Two years ago we did an experiment with 30 colonies treated and untreated and the yields were identical.

It staggers me that there are so many folk who do not try things that are slightly different but have such absolute opinions. I think that is called democracy.
john

 

[Madge]

Honey yields = no difference at all. Two years ago we did an experiment with 30 colonies treated and untreated and the yields were identical.

It staggers me that there are so many folk who do not try things that are slightly different but have such absolute opinions. I think that is called democracy.
john

Did you test the Varroa load in all thirty colonies before the test?

Didn’t you just now express an absolute opinion based on a one-off, small sample experiment with vague experiment criteria?

 

[fiat500bee]

Didn’t you just now express an absolute opinion based on a one-off, small sample experiment with vague experiment criteria?

It sounds like a personal experience rather than an absolute opinion.
He's practising what he preaches...."trying something slightly different,"

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

yes, opinions rather than facts and going by what I can see from previous posts/threads the 'identical yields' in both cases probably equated to 'mediocre'

 

[madasafish]

Honey yields = no difference at all. Two years ago we did an experiment with 30 colonies treated and untreated and the yields were identical.

It staggers me that there are so many folk who do not try things that are slightly different but have such absolute opinions. I think that is called democracy.
john

I

I have tried different things. They ended badly.
I also observe others not treating round here. Their honey crops are pitiful- 20 to 30 lbs per hive if they are lucky.Their winter losses are appalling.

Your assumption that I have not tried other things is- an assumption.

I also would note that location and local winter climates do make a difference to the stresses bees are under. From your location, you are in Berkshire. I am on the edge of the Peak District..

 

[pargyle]

Honey yields = no difference at all. Two years ago we did an experiment with 30 colonies treated and untreated and the yields were identical.

It staggers me that there are so many folk who do not try things that are slightly different but have such absolute opinions. I think that is called democracy.
john

I rather suspect that colonies with high varroa loads will not produce good honey yields .. it stands to reason .. heavy varroa infestations do weaken colonies and presumably individual bees. However, we should not be equating treatment free with poor yields .. because a beekeeper does not treat his bees for varroa does not mean that they are inherently heavily infested.

The two things are entirely separate ... one does not necessarily follow the other.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

I rather suspect that colonies with high varroa loads will not produce good honey yields .. it stands to reason .. heavy varroa infestations do weaken colonies and presumably individual bees. However, we should not be equating treatment free with poor yields .. because a beekeeper does not treat his bees for varroa does not mean that they are inherently heavily infested.

The two things are entirely separate ... one does not necessarily follow the other.

No, but buggering them around with midwinter 'checkerboarding' treatment free or not is bound to have a detrimental effect on the yield.