Treatment Free

[Murox]

Seillean mil, wrote -
I agree with you on the gist of that, especially getting local co-operation. But I'm assuming that most of us love our current bees enough that, as with children (where applicable), we'll stick with what we were first given.

So what then is the purpose of your approach - improvement ?​

I'm postulating a low-tech approach; and using I.I., on the presumption that local drones don't have the right genes to offer, might mean that we lose more than we gain. Local drones rool ok!

That is a false assumption, I was thinking more along the lines of controlling genes.​

 

[pargyle]

From Randy Oliver's www.scientificbeekeeping.com (for those who haven't read his research, it really is worth having a good look). "Note to hobby beekeepers: I say this to make clear that beekeeper Jane or Joe Treatment-Free is dreaming if she or he think that allowing their colonies to die from lack of mite management is going to improve honey bee genetics overall. If they want to improve honey bee genetics, they’d do best to treat their hives to keep them healthy, but put pressure on whoever they purchase queens from to seriously select for mite resistance."

The above was taken from Selective Breeding for Mite Resistance: Walking the Walk - Scientific Beekeeping

The whole series of research into breeding for mite resistance is here: Breeding Resistant Bees Archives - Scientific Beekeeping

Yes ... I've read Randy Olivers work and a number of other papers on 'Varroa resistant' or 'Hygienic' bees ... yes, I think they exist but as a hobby beekeeper I have little chance of breeding such stocks of my own.

But ... I think there is more to it than this ... I've been treatment free for all of my beekeeping years ... Ok - it's not a lifetime - but my treatment free bees have not died out. They appear to co-exist with varroa and the varroa loads are generally very light. My bee stocks are a mix of local mongrels and colonies from a few bought in queens (not foreign queens I would add). The colonies I have are mostly small black bees - there's occasionally a few stripey ones in there but with local open mated queens I would expect that.

The have never been tested for hygienic traits. So .. I think that there is a variety of things that allow bees to survive alongside varroa:

1. Local conditions - Climate & forage.
2. Conditions they are kept in - hive type, insulation.
3. Location - other bees and beekeepers in the area.

There may be other factors that influence their ability to manage the varroa load - I'm foundationless and I know where the wax comes from - out of my bees - there is no chance of contaminated foundation. They build a lot of drone comb and there are always lots of drones in my colonies.

As much a possible I leave them with enough honey to survive over winter - yes they get topped up with invertbee but it is only a top up.

I don't use queen excluders and my inspection regime is very low interference ... I try and disturb the brood nest as little as possible and I keep my inspections to the times when I think I need them. My bees are healthy, I don't ever see any signs of brood disease or any other diseases for that matter. Clear crownboard and landing boards allow me to see what my bees are like and what they are doing and that avoids some of the need to invade te brood box.

I don't know how, if or why these factors influence my bees ability to successfully exist in the face of varroa - it's a conundrum and I have no control colonies or the ability to test if my regime could work in other locations. I know one other beekeeper whose colonies are about two miles as the bee flies who has been treatment free now for over 12 years and a few others in the area who are also treatment free - some operate in the same way as I do and apparently are also successful.

Who knows .. hygienc bees ? Yes I believe in them but I don't think I have them and I doubt they are the magic bullet. Luck ? probably ...along with a regime that helps rather than controls the bees. I think stressed colonies are very susceptible to parasites and disease - beginners seem to lose more colonies and have more problems than beekeepers of a few years - perhaps the desire to be in and out of their hives too frequently has an impact ?

I just feel grateful that whatever it is works ... and keep doing it.

 

[seillean mil]

So what then is the purpose of your approach - improvement ?

It's not exactly "my approach", but a version of one which appeals to my logic. It should lead to an improvement in the ability of my bees to deal with my varroa.

That is a false assumption, I was thinking more along the lines of controlling genes.

I'm not a geneticist so I'm unable to control genes. But the fastest and healthiest of any drones in my area are the ones I want as parent stock.......not the ones that I find easiest to catch.

 

[seillean mil]

My bee stocks are a mix of local mongrels and colonies from a few bought in queens (not foreign queens I would add).

There may be other factors that influence their ability to manage the varroa load - I'm foundationless and I know where the wax comes from - out of my bees - there is no chance of contaminated foundation. They build a lot of drone comb and there are always lots of drones in my colonies.

Conditions they are kept in - hive type, insulation.

As much a possible I leave them with enough honey to survive over winter -

I don't use queen excluders and my inspection regime is very low interference ... I try and disturb the brood nest as little as possible and I keep my inspections to the times when I think I need them.


I think stressed colonies are very susceptible to parasites and disease - beginners seem to lose more colonies and have more problems than beekeepers of a few years -

No wonder you are successful...you have the perfect recipe right there.

 

[gmonag]

... I've been treatment free for all of my beekeeping years ... Ok - it's not a lifetime - but my treatment free bees have not died out...

Did you make a conscious decision to go treatment free or did it happen accidently? How did you start?

 

[pargyle]

Did you make a conscious decision to go treatment free or did it happen accidently? How did you start?

I started out on the basis that I would monitor mite drop and treat if necessary ... at the time my first hive was my long hive (Highly insulated, mesh floor with a drawer arrangement under the mesh floor with a greased varroa board in it). .. I counted mites ... what few there were ... daily ... I took temperature and humidity measurements daily - twice a day ... I converted it to clear crownboards. The bees thrived .. I waited for the inevitable increase in mites ... it didn't happen. I always had the principle that I was going to keep bees in a low interference way and foundationless - with the basis that nothing went into the hive unless the bees brought it in ... and high levels of insulation. I found that you could not keep one hive but building another long hive like the one I had was too time consuming so my next hive was a Paynes Poly .. and I continued with the same principles ... and very low mite counts. I stopped counting mites on the inspection board and started doing alcohol washes and sugar rolls ... still low mite levels and at times virtually none.

So it went on and continues ... there were a few scares when the mite loads went up occasionally (and there are still !) but I resisted the temptation to treat and they went back down.

I've got the means to treat with OA by vaping and I treat some other hives I look after ... but.... mine started out treatment free ... and so it goes on ...

 

[gmonag]

What mite load would you consider scary?

 

[pargyle]

What mite load would you consider scary?

Anything above 5 mites in a sugar roll of about 200 bees always worries me a bit .. it's usually 1 or 2 maximum although I've seen occasional sugar rolls give 14 or 15 and those few occasions have had me worried - although large loads like this always reduced very quickly and were just unexplained spikes.

It's quite stressful at times being treatment free ... darn site easier just to get the vapouriser out.

 

[understanding_bees]

Wow so much negativity and supposition. I thought the whole idea of forums like this was to help share ideas and possibilities.

I could not agree more.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I could not agree more.

There’s a lot of positivity on this forum too. Much more of that than negativity. You had to go quite a way back to find this particularly negative example.

 

[seillean mil]

You had to go quite a way back to find this particularly negative example.

......not at all, I kick-started this thread again yesterday. My post came straight after the one from @john w whom I mentioned and to whom @understanding_bees refers.

PS. Edit: that "particularly negative example" was in fact, a particularly positive post when taken in full and in context.

 

[understanding_bees]

I don't think there should be or ever will be enforceable legislation to limit international or intra-national movement of bees, but it's worth bearing in mind that the more we keep our bees to ourselves, the more likely it is that our bees will not be exposed to unfamiliar pathogenic strains.

There is an important factor to be considered in this discussion - Quarantine.

The practice of quarantine, as we know it, began during the 14th century in an effort to protect coastal cities from plague epidemics. Ships arriving in Venice from infected ports were required to sit at anchor for 40 days before landing.

If appropriate quarantine procedures are followed, there does not need to be a problem. The real purpose of quarantine is to ensure that there is no infection / infestation / or harmful organism that may gain entry when any import is planned. This is the aspect which needs to be enforced.

 

[Swarm]

Banks of queens and attendants in cages sat on a shelf for forty days.

 

[Murox]

It's not exactly "my approach", but a version of one which appeals to my logic. It should lead to an improvement in the ability of my bees to deal with my varroa.

I'm not a geneticist so I'm unable to control genes. But the fastest and healthiest of any drones in my area are the ones I want as parent stock.......not the ones that I find easiest to catch.

Why is one queen is gold and another very dark, why are the progeny of one queen nasty and those of another calm and gentle, why does one group of workers winter well and another poorly, why are some bees disease resistant and another group disease prone ? lets not forget hygienic behaviour; all 'genotypes” - sets of heritable genes
Its important/fundamental to have some knowledge of the genetic makeup of both the queen and the drones that mated with her. It should be important to you to know who the drones were! Simple observation of behaviour is sufficient, you don't need to be a geneticist.

 

[North End Bees]

Why is one queen is gold and another very dark, why are the progeny of one queen nasty and those of another calm and gentle, why does one group of workers winter well and another poorly, why are some bees disease resistant and another group disease prone ? lets not forget hygienic behaviour; all 'genotypes” - sets of heritable genes
Its important/fundamental to have some knowledge of the genetic makeup of both the queen and the drones that mated with her. It should be important to you to know who the drones were! Simple observation of behaviour is sufficient, you don't need to be a geneticist.

These traits are all phenotypes. Genotyping is done in the lab.
As beekeepers we can select our breeding queens by phenotype, e.g some or all of the characteristics above. Bearing in mind that traits can be influenced by environment.

E.g. a queen which has a genetic propensity for chalkbrood may not show this if the living conditions are optimal. But her daughter queen, who happens to have inherited the same chalkbrood-susceptible genetics, may head a chalkbrood-susceptible colony. The beekeeper will probably blame the drones for the aberration as his maternal line was not susceptible as far as he knew.

The same applies to other phenotypes, e.g 'hygienic' behaviour.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Yes ... I've read Randy Olivers work and a number of other papers on 'Varroa resistant' or 'Hygienic' bees ... yes, I think they exist but as a hobby beekeeper I have little chance of breeding such stocks of my own.

But ... I think there is more to it than this ... I've been treatment free for all of my beekeeping years ... Ok - it's not a lifetime - but my treatment free bees have not died out. They appear to co-exist with varroa and the varroa loads are generally very light. My bee stocks are a mix of local mongrels and colonies from a few bought in queens (not foreign queens I would add). The colonies I have are mostly small black bees - there's occasionally a few stripey ones in there but with local open mated queens I would expect that.

The have never been tested for hygienic traits. So .. I think that there is a variety of things that allow bees to survive alongside varroa:

1. Local conditions - Climate & forage.
2. Conditions they are kept in - hive type, insulation.
3. Location - other bees and beekeepers in the area.

There may be other factors that influence their ability to manage the varroa load - I'm foundationless and I know where the wax comes from - out of my bees - there is no chance of contaminated foundation. They build a lot of drone comb and there are always lots of drones in my colonies.

As much a possible I leave them with enough honey to survive over winter - yes they get topped up with invertbee but it is only a top up.

I don't use queen excluders and my inspection regime is very low interference ... I try and disturb the brood nest as little as possible and I keep my inspections to the times when I think I need them. My bees are healthy, I don't ever see any signs of brood disease or any other diseases for that matter. Clear crownboard and landing boards allow me to see what my bees are like and what they are doing and that avoids some of the need to invade te brood box.

I don't know how, if or why these factors influence my bees ability to successfully exist in the face of varroa - it's a conundrum and I have no control colonies or the ability to test if my regime could work in other locations. I know one other beekeeper whose colonies are about two miles as the bee flies who has been treatment free now for over 12 years and a few others in the area who are also treatment free - some operate in the same way as I do and apparently are also successful.

Who knows .. hygienc bees ? Yes I believe in them but I don't think I have them and I doubt they are the magic bullet. Luck ? probably ...along with a regime that helps rather than controls the bees. I think stressed colonies are very susceptible to parasites and disease - beginners seem to lose more colonies and have more problems than beekeepers of a few years - perhaps the desire to be in and out of their hives too frequently has an impact ?

I just feel grateful that whatever it is works ... and keep doing it.

And here you the have the essence of it.
It is perfectly possible to manage your bees in such as way that they in turn manage and co exist with varroa but it takes much dedication and hard work.

When I started this thread two years ago I simply wanted to know if there were any treatment-free commercial farmers. There was probably a little devilment in my post and looking back the contrast between the first three pages and the last three is striking.
I got an answer after 46 posts from Hivemaker who runs Exmoor bees and beehives.
It's just too intensive a system if you have hundreds of hives

I shall start a poll to see if a treatment-free section is in order where people can post their plans and ideas to dominate the world varroa unmolested

 

[1amanda1]

I shall start a poll to see if a treatment-free section is in order where people can post their plans and ideas to dominate the world varroa unmolested

I'm not a fan of segregation - we all need to know what the other camp is thinking/doing or we may never find any common ground or get a chance to convert those of a different opinion to our own. People just need to be encouraged to be polite when voicing their disagreement.

 

[Erichalfbee]

I'm not a fan of segregation -

Neither am I
Anybody would be able to view and post or ignore. Just like all the other sections.

 

[seillean mil]

Its important/fundamental to have some knowledge of the genetic makeup of both the queen and the drones that mated with her.

Absolutely true. I am sure that beekeepers who are actively seeking to have resilient bees do their best with that, particularly on the maternal side. They are going to breed from colonies which appear to be less seriously affected by varroa and may terminate a genetic-line which is a disaster. But if they stick to their own bees when doing this they are more likely to maintain other important traits which make their bees successful. It seems that one of the curses of beekeeping is our inability to control the paternal genetic input; it's not something peculiar to those who seek the Holy Grail of varroa-resistant bees. Random gene variations from drones can also bring positive things to the local genepool.

 

[Murox]

These traits are all phenotypes. Genotyping is done in the lab.
As beekeepers we can select our breeding queens by phenotype, e.g some or all of the characteristics above. Bearing in mind that traits can be influenced by environment.

E.g. a queen which has a genetic propensity for chalkbrood may not show this if the living conditions are optimal. But her daughter queen, who happens to have inherited the same chalkbrood-susceptible genetics, may head a chalkbrood-susceptible colony. The beekeeper will probably blame the drones for the aberration as his maternal line was not susceptible as far as he knew.

The same applies to other phenotypes, e.g 'hygienic' behaviour.

Yes of course phenotype refers to the physical characteristics.