The varroa solution

[Sutty]

In the talk by Steve Riley I think he says the resistance is passed down the queen line only and not via the drones

It's hard to see how that could be correct as bees don't have sex chromosomes.

 

[Beesnaturally]

I'm not sure this is necessarily true because the drones don't share all of the queen's genes, only half of them. Depending on how the genetics works out it could perhaps be that it's more likely that the drones won't pass on the necessary "disease resistance" genes.

I think. My knowledge of genetics is somewhat sketchy in places.

James

Drex, Sutty, James,

As John Kefus, the guy who pioneered resistance through his use of 'Live and Let Die' says: You don't need to know how it works. You just need to know that it works. Evolution works. Its like getting in an aeroplane. You don't need to know how it works. You just need to know that it works.

Stop getting in Evolution's way and all is well.

I say this James because: people get bogged down in the detail, the science of the detail, and whole lot of stuff they are unequipped to understand; and they and others never catch sight of the simple truth.

Just keep bees as husbandry men have thousands of years. In medieval times honey was one of the UK's biggest exports. It can't be that hard! Stop applying utterly inappropriate veterinary medicine to a free-mating animal because that poisons the local population you rely on for health, and follow the simple instruction: Put best to best. You can choose your best queen; only nature can choose the best males.

If Ancient Egyptians and medieval countryfolk could do it, we can do it. Don't go worrying about the infinite detail.

 

[Sutty]

It's hard to see how that could be correct as bees don't have sex chromosomes.

Unless via mitochondrial dna in egg cytoplasm I guess.

 

[Murox]

In the talk by Steve Riley I think he says the resistance is passed down the queen line only and not via the drones

Yes I think he did and attempted briefly to evidence that. My ears pricked at the time.

 

[Beesnaturally]

With honeybees, can traits be passed down the drone route?

ChatGPT said:​

Yes, traits can be passed down through drones, but in honeybee genetics, the mechanism is unique due to their haplodiploid reproductive system.

Key Points About Drone Genetics:​

1. Drones Are Haploid:
   • Drones develop from unfertilized eggs, meaning they inherit only the queen’s genetic material.
   • They carry a single set of chromosomes (haploid) directly from their mother, the queen.
2. No Father:
   • Since drones have no father, they cannot inherit traits from one. All their genetic material comes from the queen.
3. Drones as Genetic Carriers:
   • Drones contribute significantly to the next generation because they pass on their genetic material during mating.
   • A drone’s sperm contains a copy of its haploid genome, which contributes to the diploid genetics of worker bees and queens in the colony.
4. Traits Passed Via Drones:
   • Traits linked to the maternal side (e.g., disease resistance or productivity traits carried by the queen) can be passed to the drone and then on to the next generation.
   • Drones do not directly influence the traits of their colony of origin (since they do not perform work or affect colony behavior), but their genetic contribution to future queens and workers is critical.
5. Implications for Breeding:
   • In controlled breeding programs, selecting queens with desirable traits ensures these are passed to their drones.
   • By ensuring drones from high-quality queens dominate mating (e.g., in isolated mating yards), breeders can influence the traits in the resulting queens and workers.

Note: ChatGPT can be wrong.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Note: ChatGPT can be wrong.

That reminds me of the article describing AI recommending how to kill somebody who is bullying you in school.

 

[Beesnaturally]

That reminds me of the article describing AI recommending how to kill somebody who is bullying you in school.

Its a bit old hat. AI is a multi-trillion dollar industry because it helps people in an all but infinite number of ways. If you want to try it, ChatGPT is by far the outstanding contender.

 

[Beesnaturally]

BTW I'm not saying Steve is wrong - but I'd like to see the support for that case.

 

[Penninetrader]

With honeybees, can traits be passed down the drone route?

ChatGPT said:​

Yes, traits can be passed down through drones, but in honeybee genetics, the mechanism is unique due to their haplodiploid reproductive system.

Key Points About Drone Genetics:​

1. Drones Are Haploid:
   • Drones develop from unfertilized eggs, meaning they inherit only the queen’s genetic material.
   • They carry a single set of chromosomes (haploid) directly from their mother, the queen.
2. No Father:
   • Since drones have no father, they cannot inherit traits from one. All their genetic material comes from the queen.
3. Drones as Genetic Carriers:
   • Drones contribute significantly to the next generation because they pass on their genetic material during mating.
   • A drone’s sperm contains a copy of its haploid genome, which contributes to the diploid genetics of worker bees and queens in the colony.
4. Traits Passed Via Drones:
   • Traits linked to the maternal side (e.g., disease resistance or productivity traits carried by the queen) can be passed to the drone and then on to the next generation.
   • Drones do not directly influence the traits of their colony of origin (since they do not perform work or affect colony behavior), but their genetic contribution to future queens and workers is critical.
5. Implications for Breeding:
   • In controlled breeding programs, selecting queens with desirable traits ensures these are passed to their drones.
   • By ensuring drones from high-quality queens dominate mating (e.g., in isolated mating yards), breeders can influence the traits in the resulting queens and workers.

Note: ChatGPT can be wrong.

My own logic says much the same. I have for some time thought Drones more important than generally given credit for in promoting a positive way forward.

 

[Moobee]

No one seems to report on culling their most varroa affected colonies each year to move towards resistance without unacceptable losses.
Thoughts??

No need to cull. Steve Riley’s research indicates that the varroa resistant gene is passed on by the Queen so find a suitable queen by monitoring your other colonies for signs of uncapping, chewing out of infected pupae, low varroa drops etc.

 

[Sutty]

No need to cull. Steve Riley’s research indicates that the varroa resistant gene is passed on by the Queen so find a suitable queen by monitoring your other colonies for signs of uncapping, chewing out of infected pupae, low varroa drops etc.

Unfortunately I haven't seen signs of such behaviour in my colonies.
By culling I meant the genetic line ie queen (though maybe drone brood too), so requeening would still count, or removing an undesirable queen and uniting.

 

[Beesnaturally]

Unfortunately I haven't seen signs of such behaviour in my colonies.

Do you know their provenance? Have you tried just not treating them?

The best bet is to bait some swarms, help them establish and otherwise let them alone. Meanwhile, if you carry on treating your present ones, cull your drone brood and queen cells to keep them from undermining resistance in your local population.

By culling I meant the genetic line ie queen (though maybe drone brood too), so requeening would still count, or removing an undesirable queen and uniting.

If you have a feral swarm to unite with I would go that way, to bring in the desired strains of mites. (The solution the bees have is a co-evolved arrangement)

 

[Penninetrader]

Do you know their provenance? Have you tried just not treating them?

The best bet is to bait some swarms, help them establish and otherwise let them alone. Meanwhile, if you carry on treating your present ones, cull your drone brood and queen cells to keep them from undermining resistance in your local population.

If you have a feral swarm to unite with I would go that way, to bring in the desired strains of mites. (The solution the bees have is a co-evolved arrangement)

I fear you have just committed Heracy with that last post

 

[Sutty]

Do you know their provenance? Have you tried just not treating them?

The best bet is to bait some swarms, help them establish and otherwise let them alone. Meanwhile, if you carry on treating your present ones, cull your drone brood and queen cells to keep them from undermining resistance in your local population.

If you have a feral swarm to unite with I would go that way, to bring in the desired strains of mites. (The solution the bees have is a co-evolved arrangement)

Do you have any links or references to differences in the mites?
It strikes me that there is little evolutionary pressure on the mites as even if they kill their host colony they can probably get transferred to a new colony by robbing bees.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Do you have any links or references to differences in the mites?
It strikes me that there is little evolutionary pressure on the mites as even if they kill their host colony they can probably get transferred to a new colony by robbing bees.

I don’t know if BN means this but if you google low fecundity varroa there’s quite a bit.

 

[Sutty]

I don’t know if BN means this but if you google low fecundity varroa there’s quite a bit.

Thanks I'll try goggling, although I thought the low fecundity was as a result of the bees' activities rather than a change in the mites.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Thanks I'll try goggling, although I thought the low fecundity was as a result of the bees' activities rather than a change in the mites.

This? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2021.1375

 

[Beesnaturally]

Do you have any links or references to differences in the mites?
It strikes me that there is little evolutionary pressure on the mites as even if they kill their host colony they can probably get transferred to a new colony by robbing bees.

Transference is generally minor, so any characteristics in the colony mites tend to dominate once established - especially if the bees are pushing them in that direction.

I don't know how much what I will say here will be supported - its one of those things that seems bleddy obvious to me once the first part (as explained by Steve Riley is in place).

As I understand it, if (VHS, or similar traits) bees detect mites in brood cells and uncapping occurs, they interfere with mite reproduction.

The bees seem to uncap more frequently in cases where there are many young mites inside the cell.

This behavior suppresses the strains of mites that tend to have large families, while leaving strains with smaller families relatively unaffected.

(Note: Family size is an inheritable trait.)

Over time, this pressure results in a mite population dominated by strains that produce only one or two offspring per cycle—levels the bees can manage.

The real problem arises when strains of mites that produce four or six offspring per cycle become prevalent. These strains multiply exponentially, leading to a so-called 'mite explosion' that overwhelms the bees.

I think you'll find that much in Steve Riley and the scientific work.

In effect (in my words now), the bees are selectively breeding low-fertility (or low-fecundity) mites, which they can keep under control.

 

[Sutty]

This? https://royalsocietypublishing.org/doi/10.1098/rspb.2021.1375

Still seems to be a change in the bees rather than the mites from what I've read, now in several papers.

 

[pargyle]

Still seems to be a change in the bees rather than the mites from what I've read, now in several papers.

It doesn't really matter whether it's a causal effect created by the bees selectively culling mites as a result of evolution or learned behaviour by the bees - the fact that the mites remaining are changed and become less fecund is the critical outcome. Plus, if there are fewer mites in colonies the bees VSH has a greater impact. Win win as far as I can see.