Treatment Free

[Speybee]

Mesh floors were originally called varroa floors - the intention was that varroa would drop through and be unable to regain access ... about as much use in this respect as dusting bees with icing sugar -probably less ! I rather feel that the happy floor may be in the same wishful category ... at £52 it is a lot of money and I don't see a lot of evidence that it really works.

OK thanks for that bit of insight.
It is dear for something that could be as useful as chocolate frying pan, ( at least I could eat the chocolate, several kilos worth at that price)

 

[fiat500bee]

It's a tough path to follow if you are not lucky ... I've been lucky ... you will never find me telling anyone that they should go treatment free ... the choice is there but I'm not insisting anyone follows it.

I see what you mean; but some evangelists just show the way by not preaching but by having a positive outlook and maybe that encourages people more than doing the old Billy Graham routine.

There are definitely a lot more evangelists on the opposite side of the treatment debate and some of them have more of the style of Dr. Ian Paisley.

 

[Madge]

... but if you want to try - try.

Yes, and spread your bees’ Varroa about - particularly if a new beekeeper who might not know what to look out for.

 

[fiat500bee]

Yes, and spread your bees’ Varroa about - particularly if a new beekeeper who might not know what to look out for.

....I didn't, I asked here, I do now.

The varroa (I don't give them the courtesy of a capital "v") aren't mine to spread. In fact if I can get away with not treating for verroa over several years and generations of bees and you do the same by treating them, your verroa will be the fittest of the fittest who have been bred from those who are less affected by chemicals. Consequently my, by then, fittest of the fittest bees with regard to handling verroa, will stiil struggle when your bees spread their own strain of verroa.

 

[madasafish]

....I didn't, I asked here, I do now.

The varroa (I don't give them the courtesy of a capital "v") aren't mine to spread. In fact if I can get away with not treating for verroa over several years and generations of bees and you do the same by treating them, your verroa will be the fittest of the fittest who have been bred from those who are less affected by chemicals. Consequently my, by then, fittest of the fittest bees with regard to handling verroa, will stiil struggle when your bees spread their own strain of verroa.

That assumption - that you are breeding chemical resistant varroa - is based on using the same chemical over years.

Most sensible treaters mix treatments over years. . This makes breeding chemical resistant varroa much more difficult.

Honey yields per hive treated vs untreated would be useful to make the debate more useful. Since I have not seen any so far, I assume they are unfavourable to non treaters.

No one has suggested we stop malaria treatments of humans and breed malaria resistant humans. But based on the logic behind non treatment, that is what we should be doing.. and smallpox, covid -19, syphilis,etc..

 

[Madge]

....I didn't, I asked here, I do now. ...

I was speaking in general, in reply to Pargyle. I don't understand the 'I do now' part of your sentence. What do you do now? Treat them?

 

[oxnatbees]

I met two treatment free beeks today who could not overwinter their bees. Expensive business that should not be practiced by hobby beeks.

Can you put them in touch with me (PM via this forum) to discuss this? I would like to learn from fails as wells as wins.

For example, there seems to be a pattern that if you use non-local commercial bees, they don't fare well if you go full-on no-treatment. I would like to compare their management regime with mine. Maybe it's identical and they're in another part of the country - that would be interesting too.

Without discourse, no discovery.

 

[fiat500bee]

No one has suggested we stop malaria treatments of humans and breed malaria resistant humans. But based on the logic behind non treatment, that is what we should be doing.. and smallpox, covid -19, syphilis,etc..

No-one has suggested that, including me. So I don't see the connection. Bees are insects and have the potential to reproduce and achieve a wide genetic diversity over a much shorter period of time than even the most precocious humans.....and they're not humans. We do try to limit the use of antibiotics due to bacteria becoming resistant to them. As far as I am aware, there are already some chemicals which aren't effective on verroa and if we continue to "mix" treatments isn't it possible that these might become less effective over time?

Varroa reproduce even more frequently than bees so possibly have an even greater capacity for the most well suited individuals in any given situation to get the chance to pass on their genes; as you say, " This makes breeding chemical resistant varroa much more difficult. "...but maybe not impossible?

 

[fiat500bee]

I was speaking in general, in reply to Pargyle. I don't understand the 'I do now' part of your sentence. What do you do now? Treat them?

You were speaking on a public forum and I answered as someone that you descibed, " a new beekeeper who might not know what to look out for. "

 

[pargyle]

OK thanks for that bit of insight.
It is dear for something that could be as useful as chocolate frying pan, ( at least I could eat the chocolate, several kilos worth at that price)

You need to get Mr Speybee on a handymans course ... with a few bits of three x two and some plastic water pipe I reckon you could knock up a happy floor for less than a fiver ... In fact, I think I once saw an instructable on making one somewhere ...

Here's a nice photo of one ... doesn't look like it's rocket science to replace the mesh in a normal mesh floor with the plastic tubing.

 

[CosmoRossini]

Just curious but has anyone tried those Happy Bee floors?
The ones that look like long rollers where any nasties drop through the spaces between the rollers, presumably never to be heard from again?
If you have tried them could you tell us any pros and cons ....well apart from the price

used a happy keeper floor on one of my colonies this year. Did a varroa count on OMF inspection board and they had very low numbers, 7 mites after 6 days.

my other colony that I had on OMF all summer had much higher numbers and I will be treating them.

 

[Speybee]

You need to get Mr Speybee on a handymans course ... with a few bits of three x two and some plastic water pipe I reckon you could knock up a happy floor for less than a fiver ... In fact, I think I once saw an instructable on making one somewhere ...

Here's a nice photo of one ... doesn't look like it's rocket science to replace the mesh in a normal mesh floor with the plastic tubing.

Thanks for that advice, will pass on the idea to Mr Speybee.

 

[Speybee]

used a happy keeper floor on one of my colonies this year. Did a varroa count on OMF inspection board and they had very low numbers, 7 mites after 6 days.

my other colony that I had on OMF all summer had much higher numbers and I will be treating them.

Interesting comparison and thanks for sharing.
So will you buying or making more Happy Bee floors?

 

[pargyle]

I was speaking in general, in reply to Pargyle. I don't understand the 'I do now' part of your sentence. What do you do now? Treat them?

Kitta ... You know that I have never treated for varroa but I do monitor constantly for infestation. My bees have never been infested to the levels I sometimes see on here ...thousands of mites dropping. My colonies rarely get into double figures on the inspection board and if I find one or two in my sugar rolls it's a rare occasion. You, perhaps, need to look to beekeepers who, allegedly, treat their bees but either do it wrongly or are not as rigorous testing their colonies for the actual mite load. It is more likely that people who think they have treated 'by the book' are not actually getting the success rate that you should get ...even OA by sublimation is not always totally effective - Dani had a colony that was robbing a mite bomb that took five OA's and still were infested.

You can't continue to blame TF beekeepers for spreading mites ... there are enough let alone or bad beekeepers out there that have no idea what is happening in their colonies and I would agree - may be harbouring mite boms or diseased colonies ... I live in the same fear as you do about cross infection.

I have always said that TF is not for new beekeepers ... there is enough to learn .. and to add another level of inspection above what is required for swarm control and disease and stores is too much for those with a single hive or two and whilst I started out as TF the learning curve was tough and I was lucky that my regime and my bees responded well to being TF. I've always been honest and said that I would not let a colony become over-infested and I have the means to sublimate and I have treated other people's colonies - mine have just never needed it.

 

[pargyle]

Thanks for that advice, will pass on the idea to Mr Speybee.

Good luck with that ... buy him a shed and pick your moments ... just don't mention my name or he'll probably send the boys round

 

[CosmoRossini]

Interesting comparison and thanks for sharing.
So will you buying or making more Happy Bee floors?

I intend to use HKF on both colonies next year. It will be interesting to see what the counts are like at the end of the year. I’m not convinced the HKF was the sole reason for the low varroa numbers.

 

[Speybee]

Good luck with that ... buy him a shed and pick your moments ... just don't mention my name or he'll probably send the boys round

You wouldn’t want a Glesga’ kiss?

 

[Speybee]

I intend to use HKF on both colonies next year. It will be interesting to see what the counts are like at the end of the year. I’m not convinced the HKF was the sole reason for the low varroa numbers.

Do you have a gut feeling, about any other factor that could have been significant in the difference between these 2 colonies seeing so far that the Happy bee floor was the hive with less drop?

 

[CosmoRossini]

Do you have a gut feeling, about any other factor that could have been significant in the difference between these 2 colonies seeing so far that the Happy bee floor was the hive with less drop?

The HKF colony came to me as a swarm in April. The OMF colony came to me as an overwintered colony in May. This different start in life makes me question the accuracy of any comparisons.

 

[Speybee]

No-one has suggested that, including me. So I don't see the connection. Bees are insects and have the potential to reproduce and achieve a wide genetic diversity over a much shorter period of time than even the most precocious humans.....and they're not humans. We do try to limit the use of antibiotics due to bacteria becoming resistant to them. As far as I am aware, there are already some chemicals which aren't effective on verrroa and if we continue to "mix" treatments isn't it possible that these might become less effective over time?

Varroa reproduce even more frequently than bees so possibly have an even greater capacity for the most well suited individuals in any given situation to get the chance to pass on their genes; as you say, " This makes breeding chemical resistant varroa much more difficult. "...but maybe not impossible?

I agree with you Fiatbee.

I am surprised there is no regional rotation schedule for preventing the emergence of varroa resistance to some chemical treatments.
This already is happening in the sphere of antibiotics with resistant MRSA and the increase in cases of Sepsis.

Anti malarials are having a challenging moment too as the following extract from Wwarn states
Extract dated 9 January 2017, as follows:

‘Study suggests deployment or rotation of multiple first-line antimalarial medicines will effectively treat malaria and maintain drug efficacy.
Uganda has one of the highest burdens of malaria in the world. Artemisinin-based combination therapies (ACTs), the current recommended treatment against falciparum malaria, are still highly effective at treating malaria patients in the region. However, the emergence of artemisinin and partner drug resistance in the Mekong region of Southeast Asia is of great concern for countries like Uganda, where the malaria burden is high. If the efficacy of ACTs declines due to drug resistance, it will put the lives of millions at risk.

The latest WWARN supported study published in Open Forum of Infectious Diseases (link is external)suggests that rotating ACT regimens may be the best way to reduce the risk of emergence of antimalarial drug resistance in Africa.’