Treatment Free

[janetbee]

Hi Mike,

At the beginning of the year, as soon as I'm prepared to go outside without a coat and there is a nice still sunny day (sometimes have to wait til May!), I do a full inpection. After that:
If some are flying and others aren't, I'd look.
If pollen seen going in with lots of flying bees, I'm happy to leave them.
If flying but no pollen when other hives are bringing in pollen, I'd look - may not have a queen.
If the bees are annoyed just by my presence outside the hive, I'd look - may not have a queen.
If there is only one sunny day in 5, I don't look as I feel that may be there only time to forage well.
If there are a few sunny days in a row and I haven't looked at them for a month, I'll look - to check them and also because I like looking at what they're doing. I check them more during swarm season if the weather is good and I am home.
I check them before leaving them alone for the winter.

I have used my own wax for starter strips. This year I am using a triangular piece of wood nailed to the top with no way - they seem just as happy with this. I do have a problem with them building comb across several frames, but at the end of the season I just take that super off, extract the honey and the wax and then try again. It's a bit messy but I like to try different things. I'm trying to intersperse well drawn comb with starter frames in the hope that they will be encouraged to build straight. Even with foundation, my bees don't always build straight comb. Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong. Suggestions welcomed from anyone else using foundationless frames.

Changing comb - if I want to change a whole box of comb, I move it up so that as the bees go back down when winter is approaching, the combs are less likely to have brood in them. I can extract any honey and melt out the wax.

IPM - I look at the colonies and monitor them for notifiable diseases. I don't treat for Varroa and haven't for at least 8 years now. I keep an eye out for DWV but haven't seen any for a while. If I only see 1 or 2, I'm not worried.

I try not to deplete the hives of honey so that I can avoid feeding syrup because 1) I'm too busy to do the whole syrup thing, 2) I think honey is better for them and makes for healthier and stronger colonies (not based on anything other than my own feelings). 3) I don't make a living out of selling honey so I'm not fussed if I only get a bit. If they need it, I will and do feed sugar syrup.

Is my apiary remote? - no houses nearby and no beeks within a mile at least.

Cheers,

Amanda

Thank you Amanda.
I find this sort of post really interesting and honest. Much, much more interesting and useful than all the sniping that seems to go on, on the forum. There are always several ways of doing things to get to the same result. Hearing other people's experiences and practices is great. I take the Basic "course" in our association and every year there is something useful to be learnt from the beekeepers on the course, even though they may be relatively new to beekeeping.
Btw, I am going towards not treating for varroa. I like to leave the bees with their own honey (gut instinct it is better than sugar syrup- I do use syrup when necessary) and I keep bees for more reasons than just getting huge crops of honey.
Happy beekeeping everyone,
Janet

 

[Cyfareddol]

I put out bait hives. I also check hives in swarm season for queen cells and then split the hive to make increase unless I think they are supercedure queen cells. Sometimes (let's be honest..often...this is North Wales) the weather is too poor to be looking through the hives at the weekend and I work during the week. This is where the bait hives come in handy. I am luck enough to live rurally where the nearest neighbour is a mile away and so far I have not had any complaints. I have had a swarm that ignored the bait hives and decide home was the back wheel of an old landrover or a swarm that preferred the pile of empty supers in the barn - see below re books! I don't use queen excluders so the queen is less likely to run out of laying space. I will move supers of honey up and place an empty super above the brood so that they always have enough space for more brood.

I'd be interested to know what you do.

I also keep bees in N Wales and the weather is often unsuitable for flying bees .
i use bait hives situated between the occupied hives in my apiary enclosure. They are about 0.3 mts apart. This year I collected three swarms in the apiary and two in the surrounding garden.
if I have to go away I use this system ,
Langstroth queen trap anti-swarm system | Modern Beekeeping .
I have a supportive neighbour and she phoned to tell me about a swarm on our fence. Half an hour later they had all gone home. This method also means there are a lot more bees in the colony, for a while, to collect nectar etc.
Until this year , (I’m getting old) I’ve regularly checked for queen cells and made splits which I’ve passed on to new beekeepers but I’m doing just as well collecting swarms.
I use brood and a half but intend to change to double brood next year.

 

[happyculteur]

Much, much more interesting and useful than all the sniping that seems to go on, on the forum. There are always several ways of doing things to get to the same result.

I hope you won't consider this as sniping, but the problem is that different ways of doing things don't get the same result. And often we don't have the necessary knowledge to know why.

 

[Tim.S]

"lazy beekeepers brigade" This is unnecessarily judgemental and derogatory. It stifles any discussion we may like to have about different beekeeping techniques. Why don't you just tell us what you do and we can all make up our own minds about the different ways people keep bees. If we all keep an open mind, there is a chance we can learn from each other.

I am speaking from my own experiences of other treatment free beekeepers that I personally have experience of, I cannot see how me telling you of those experiences or of my opinion based on those experiences can in any way stifle discussion. An open mind means listening to ALL points of view, and as I said quite clearly 'all power to those that do it properly', i.e. monitor and occasionally test their bees.

I have no problem with a scientific approach to this issue and indeed welcome it (this is clearly a direction that needs exploring) but my personal experience has not supported a rosy view of some beekeepers practices. There are a few good ones out there though including on this forum.

As for my beekeeping I run 40 colonies at the moment and increasing year on year as I find good sites. I am not treatment free nor can I see any scientific basis AT THE MOMENT for doing so with my own bees. I only treat using 'soft' treatments, i.e. oxalic, thymol based and formic methods. I do not like treating any more than any other beekeeper, in spite of the fact that I have over 40 years experience in the use of chemicals in both an agricultural and horticultural background.

 

[Erichalfbee]

Langstroth queen trap anti-swarm system | Modern Beekeeping .

I’m curious about this
I’ve seen it advertised for a few years.
MB used to belong to an old forum member
Do the bees actually go as far as making swarm cells and trying to chase a queen out through the excluder? Must be pretty stressful. If they do?
And what about the drones? Do they milk themselves trying to stuff themselves through the QX?

 

[beeno]

Like many others here, I remember the heady days when we had never heard of Varroa. Then I lost colonies which were hopelessly infested until Bayer and Co sold us treatments...

Having sold up and started again from scratch with Warres instead of Nationals, I also decided to go treatment free. In the four years since I restarted I have lost one colony due to a poorly performing Queen going into winter, and not to any infestation or disease.

I do not monitor mite drop etc. I see some crawlers with obvious DWV symptoms, but since the colonies are thriving I see no reason to obsess over this. I have seen similar around 'treated' hives too. I have Oxalic acid in reserve in case I see a colony in real distress, but this has not happened with 4 colonies across 4 years. From what I have observed, routine precautionary dribbling and vaping with oxalic acid can damage more bees than the small number of crawlers I observe, and many other 'treatments' are snake oil.

But I am a hobby beekeeper. If my income depended on my beekeeping I would probably treat for Varroa as as a precaution just in case.

The other problems are diseases which seem to be more bad luck than bad management, and still waiting for an effective treatment. Much like the bane affecting us humans now.

Hi Viridens, The general consensus in the literature is that colonies die out after three years. So, any time now then. How, badly your colonies are affected depends on the amount of varroa present, but also on the viral load of the varroa itself as it is a vector for many diseases. Do you do drone brood culling, do you have a lot of swarms, do you have prolific bees etc etc. There are many variables involved or you may be surrounded by beeks that treat! Also, we seem to have years with large varroa drops and some with few varroa drops. Everyone to his own. Good luck.

 

[Curly green finger's]

You start alternating empty frames with drawn ones to keep the bee drawn frames straight. It works very well providing the hive is level. I have a couple of colonies on FF but as I run 14x12 I have to reinforce the comb by wiring the frames with fishing line. Other people use bamboo skewers. With a National you probably don't need this. Nail a starter strip under the wedge, or pour a little wax on it or turn the wedge round and nail it up are all good ways of getting the bees to start drawing the frame in the right place

The method dani has discribed is the way I do it, alternating drawn frames with starter strips or sometimes with out starter strips.
I also have 14x12 hives and I use willow skewers to braise the frames.
I agree above you would get better responses if you started a thread on starter strips.

Im finding this thread very interesting by the way.. When I started I was very keen on TF but after seeing a colony get almost wiped out by varroa my thoughts changed a little.
My grandads hives were left from 2009 until 2016 when he died he had 18 hives.
When i came across 4 still in use I then became a beekeeper, so they were left for all that time unattended unmanaged and not treated.
I've still got some of these colonys but in this time some have superseded, some have swarmed, and all have been treated but not in there first year of me having them.
It's wishful thinking for me to think that some of the original genetics are there??

By his records(diary's) that I have, he was a bit hit and miss with treating his bees, and as someone has pointed out to me he used alot of manipulations.. I'm still trying to desifer them as his writing is poor and explanations even worse.
Good on you guys that are looking after your bees without treatments and having bees live along side varroa.

I know there is or was a complete association in North Wales having quite good results with TF.
I can remember seeing graphs/photos and more at a meeting two years ago.

I would be interested to know if they are still doing it??

As I'm not really taking part with meetings anymore I'm sort of out the loop... although our association did have a virgin Amm Queen from me which has mated and is doing well.
Thanks
Mark.

 

[pargyle]

Hi Viridens, The general consensus in the literature is that colonies die out after three years. So, any time now then. How, badly your colonies are affected depends on the amount of varroa present, but also on the viral load of the varroa itself as it is a vector for many diseases. Do you do drone brood culling, do you have a lot of swarms, do you have prolific bees etc etc. There are many variables involved or you may be surrounded by beeks that treat! Also, we seem to have years with large varroa drops and some with few varroa drops. Everyone to his own. Good luck.

If you believe everything printed in the bee books then you may be heading up the garden path ... Finman (Bless him - where is he at present ?) told me 8 years ago my bees would be dead within a year without treating them for varroa ... we both got banned for a while for forum brawling about it ! We've both mellowed a bit since then and clearly still have very divergent views on beekeeping - but the doom mongers have been proved wrong in a number of instances and whilst I would never encourage anyone to follow my path .. doom and gloom directed at someone who is already treatment free and doing very nicely paints a very false picture of the reality.

 

[1amanda1]

I know there is or was a complete association in North Wales having quite good results with TF.
I can remember seeing graphs/photos and more at a meeting two years ago.

I would be interested to know if they are still doing it??

That's us. I think about 90% of us are TF and many of us have been for years. The WBKA magazine I mentioned earlier has an article from one of our most experienced members. We never set out to be a mostly TF association, it just happened naturally over the years. We also have members that happily still treat their bees and we all live and let live. If a new member asks what I do, I tell them but also mention members who treat so they can talk to them too. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as the saying goes, and we are happy with what we do. We definitely monitor our hives, have regular inspections by the bee inspector, and care for our bees responsibly. I'm sure you would be welcome to come and visit and see what we do.

 

[jenkinsbrynmair]

If you believe everything printed in the bee books then you may be heading up the garden path ..the doom mongers have been proved wrong in a number of instances and whilst I would never encourage anyone to follow my path .. doom and gloom directed at someone who is already treatment free and doing very nicely paints a very false picture of the reality.

The oak tree colony at my Ty Uchaf apiary has survived, without any interference for at least four winters, and in fact, over the last two years looks stronger than when I first moved my bees there, looking at the fifth spring if they greet me next year on my late winter patrols and yes, alive at the end of each winter weeks, if not months before any colony in the area has even a thought of swarming (just to rubbish that old chestnut) The old chapel swarm behind the gravestone went for quite a few years (checked every palm Sunday by my mother's cousin, also a beekeeper) and only perished during that strange spring we had a few years ago when, everything burst to life and was looking good, then winter came along again, we all had to buy in additional fondant to keep alive booming colonies but couldn't help the chapel bees.

 

[David Heaf]

Apart from the 2010-2015 Gwynedd survey of winter colony losses among beekeepers who treat or do not treat for Varroa, does anyone here know of any other UK surveys on treatment-free, with or without the inclusion of winter losses?

 

[bobthecob]

Apart from the 2010-2015 Gwynedd survey of winter colony losses among beekeepers who treat or do not treat for Varroa, does anyone here know of any other UK surveys on treatment-free, with or without the inclusion of winter losses?

I don't think there are UK wide surveys of TF survival yet, but there is this one from one of the more active TF groups (I am not a member and don't live in that area, so have no axe to grind either way with them)

https://oxnatbees.wordpress.com/2020/08/05/winter-survival-surveys-show-treatment-free-works/

 

[Curly green finger's]

That's us. I think about 90% of us are TF and many of us have been for years. The WBKA magazine I mentioned earlier has an article from one of our most experienced members. We never set out to be a mostly TF association, it just happened naturally over the years. We also have members that happily still treat their bees and we all live and let live. If a new member asks what I do, I tell them but also mention members who treat so they can talk to them too. The proof of the pudding is in the eating as the saying goes, and we are happy with what we do. We definitely monitor our hives, have regular inspections by the bee inspector, and care for our bees responsibly. I'm sure you would be welcome to come and visit and see what we do.

Well it's nice to speak to you

I'm a member of LBKA and TBKA. I was a trustee for Ludlow for a short time but due to family commitments Im no longer a trustee, And don't get to the meeting much..
I like to meet some beekeepers from the Tenbury association at one of our local pubs.. Well did before covid and no dowt will get back to it.

I would very much like to come up to North Wales in the future for a visit that would be most welcome.

I found it very interesting how close your association is as its quite rare imo.
The results you have had over the years by what I've seen are very impressive and I would also like to learn more.
Cheers
Mark.

 

[pargyle]

Apart from the 2010-2015 Gwynedd survey of winter colony losses among beekeepers who treat or do not treat for Varroa, does anyone here know of any other UK surveys on treatment-free, with or without the inclusion of winter losses?

Welcome back David, not seen you on here for a good few years ... it was some of your writings that influenced me in the time before I actually started keeping bees ... hope you stick around and contribute occasionally.

 

[1amanda1]

Well it's nice to speak to you

I'm a member of LBKA and TBKA. I was a trustee for Ludlow for a short time but due to family commitments Im no longer a trustee, And don't get to the meeting much..
I like to meet some beekeepers from the Tenbury association at one of our local pubs.. Well did before covid and no dowt will get back to it.

I would very much like to come up to North Wales in the future for a visit that would be most welcome.

I found it very interesting how close your association is as its quite rare imo.
The results you have had over the years by what I've seen are very impressive and I would also like to learn more.
Cheers
Mark.

No apiary meetings at the moment of course but we plan to start them up again ASAP. We have outdoor meetings every month in the summer so message me when things are more normal! We're a chatty bunch and are always happy to have a new audience

 

[Curly green finger's]

No apiary meetings at the moment of course but we plan to start them up again ASAP. We have outdoor meetings every month in the summer so message me when things are more normal! We're a chatty bunch and are always happy to have a new audience

Will do thanks Amanda, I'm sure our treasurer would also like to participate, he is the one that was doing the talk on TF and showing us your associations graphs and TF processes.

Im sure he knows some of your fellow association members ill have to ask him.
Kind regards
Mark.

 

[BugsInABox]

Sure, which is why I gave the example of a single colony owner.

But once you get up to 4+ hives, it doesn't really matter how many you have before you try TF. You will have enough spare to build back up again if things go wrong.

I don’t know much about this but have read a bit. I suppose I’m thinking along the lines of natural selection. I can keep favouring my hygienic or other favourable trait hives to increase from but if ultimately my two hives are dwarfed by a non selected local drone population am I onto a looser. But yes the loosing both hives thing too.

 

[BugsInABox]

Yes I can see that and if I was starting up again I would run all the boxes on natural drawn comb, split and give away bees rather than keep my colonies strong. I might invest in VSH stick to start with and build on that but I’m getting on a bit and find life simpler just to treat with sublimated oxalic acid.
I am curious about your observations on OXalic vaping harming more bees than DWV because I have never seen similar.

So I’m on natural built comb. But why give bees away rather than have strong colonies? Is it as per my last post to try and shift the drone genetics?

 

[BugsInABox]

Yes ... as you know as well as not treating my bees all my frames are foundationless .. and build their own comb. Is this another factor in success in being TF .. I don't know. So many variables and unknowns ..

I've never seen any downsides to vaping OA .. all the one's I've ever done the bees hardly seem to react and there's never any dead brood or bees thrown out as a result. If OA by sublimation harms the bees surely you would see some evidence of it afterwards ? Trickling in mid winter ... that's a whole different matter ... opening them up in January and pouring OA in syrup over them ... can't think they really like that a lot ?

Sorry for the battery of Qs here.
But isn’t the harm potentially the continuation of less resistant lines?

 

[BugsInABox]

I have no problems with beekeepers going TF.

I was, however, nearly wiped out in 2015 by my bees robbing hives abandonned at the local National Trust Gardens 0.25 miles away. The beekeeper apparently believed in no inspections, had AFB at his home hives, infected the NT hives and just left them to die.. I lost 6 out of 7 hives to AFB as a result.. Robbing in October - November 2014 found in mine March next year.

Never had AFB since . Not an experience I wish to recall..

Based on that and other contact with local "natural" beekeepers who do not inspect, I am sceptical of the ability of new beekeepers to succeed in that route without a lot of skilled help...

I certainly inspect - a highlight of my week. It’s odd that TF has become so aligned with hands off - presumably in the pre treatment days inspections went on.