Treatment Free

[madasafish]

Not everyone defines competence in beekeeping in terms of how much honey they are able to take from the bees. In fact I wouldn't view it as a very good definition at all, unless you are talking about honey farmers.

The lady in question spreads her swarms far and wide as she does not "do" swarm control. Or much else.

Now as a beekeeper I enjoy queen rearing, and all the associated management.. If I set myself up as a queen rearer I would measure myself and my success by the qualities of each queen - temperament, disease resistance etc... But I am not.

So I measured my success or otherwise in getting my bees to survive... now I measure it in honey production..

Yes there are some hobbies where you measure nothing and just participate because you enjoy it. But beekeeping is all about honey. And honey outputs per hive are a standard measure .. through the world.

Swimmers measure their laps and times, runners their times, footballers the matches they win, golfers their scores, fishermen their catches (and the ones that got away ) gardeners their yields ...

That's life: people measure things. You don't have to like it or follow it but many do...

 

[captain666]

I agree!

In most endeavours, If you can't measure, you can't manage.

Fred.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

I agree!

In most endeavours, If you can't measure, you can't manage.

Fred.

Sorry Fred, having retired I don’t want to reminded of that corporate bulls*it
It’s only true to some extent and can often lead to wrong conclusions.

 

[Cefn Eithaf]

Hi Amanda,
Interesting post. Thank you. What prompts you to do an inspection from their behaviour ?
Do you use your own wax for starter strips and how often do you change the comb ?
What IPM methods do you use, if any ?
Do you feed sugar syrup and is your apiary isolated/remote ?
Mike

 

[bobthecob]

Well managed livestock (whether TF, small scale or not) give decent yields. The same as bad management doesn't bring home the bacon The poor average crop publicised each year bt the BBKA will tell you that.

Exactly. You view bees as livestock that produce a yield, many other beekeepers don't. That's the difference here, not competence.

 

[bobthecob]

But beekeeping is all about honey.

For you, and many others, perhaps. For some, beekeeping is all about bees. Both methods are fine. But I agree that not making any attempt to keep your own swarms (or attempted swarms) is not fine, and I certainly make every attempt to avoid swarms escaping.

 

[1amanda1]

Hi Amanda,
Interesting post. Thank you. What prompts you to do an inspection from their behaviour ?
Do you use your own wax for starter strips and how often do you change the comb ?
What IPM methods do you use, if any ?
Do you feed sugar syrup and is your apiary isolated/remote ?
Mike

Hi Mike,

At the beginning of the year, as soon as I'm prepared to go outside without a coat and there is a nice still sunny day (sometimes have to wait til May!), I do a full inpection. After that:
If some are flying and others aren't, I'd look.
If pollen seen going in with lots of flying bees, I'm happy to leave them.
If flying but no pollen when other hives are bringing in pollen, I'd look - may not have a queen.
If the bees are annoyed just by my presence outside the hive, I'd look - may not have a queen.
If there is only one sunny day in 5, I don't look as I feel that may be there only time to forage well.
If there are a few sunny days in a row and I haven't looked at them for a month, I'll look - to check them and also because I like looking at what they're doing. I check them more during swarm season if the weather is good and I am home.
I check them before leaving them alone for the winter.

I have used my own wax for starter strips. This year I am using a triangular piece of wood nailed to the top with no way - they seem just as happy with this. I do have a problem with them building comb across several frames, but at the end of the season I just take that super off, extract the honey and the wax and then try again. It's a bit messy but I like to try different things. I'm trying to intersperse well drawn comb with starter frames in the hope that they will be encouraged to build straight. Even with foundation, my bees don't always build straight comb. Maybe it's something I'm doing wrong. Suggestions welcomed from anyone else using foundationless frames.

Changing comb - if I want to change a whole box of comb, I move it up so that as the bees go back down when winter is approaching, the combs are less likely to have brood in them. I can extract any honey and melt out the wax.

IPM - I look at the colonies and monitor them for notifiable diseases. I don't treat for Varroa and haven't for at least 8 years now. I keep an eye out for DWV but haven't seen any for a while. If I only see 1 or 2, I'm not worried.

I try not to deplete the hives of honey so that I can avoid feeding syrup because 1) I'm too busy to do the whole syrup thing, 2) I think honey is better for them and makes for healthier and stronger colonies (not based on anything other than my own feelings). 3) I don't make a living out of selling honey so I'm not fussed if I only get a bit. If they need it, I will and do feed sugar syrup.

Is my apiary remote? - no houses nearby and no beeks within a mile at least.

Cheers,

Amanda

 

[Madge]

I must have missed that post in the melee ... can you point me to it ?

Yes, I had you in mind, Pargyle (post 207):

I'm not saying I would never treat ... if a colony I wished to keep was showing signs of serious infestation and showed no signs of independent recovery I have the means to sublimate OA and I would

.
but BobTheCob offered himself up as well (post 264).

 

[bobthecob]

but BobTheCob offered himself up as well

As an example of what?

I said was treatment free. You were looking for examples of people who say they are treatment free, but actually aren't. I don't fall into that camp.

 

[Swarm]

but BobTheCob offered himself up as well (post 264).

In that post he answers your question "I wonder if ..."

 

[pargyle]

Yes, I had you in mind, Pargyle (post 207):
.
but BobTheCob offered himself up as well (post 264).

I've never treated my bees for varroa or anything else for that matter - I have the kit and the means and I have treated other people's colonies aowhere they have needed it I ave treated theirs. Mine - even through a few nail biting times have not needed it. It would be a last resort and not just a matter of rite at any time of the year and in any curcumstsnces. If you test and there is no significant load why would you want to treat ! OA will only kill mites if they are there ? It's not a preventative treatment. But ... as I keep saying I'm not pious and I'm not on a crusade ... what works for me is starting to work for others and I'm really pleased about that but everyone keeps bees in different ways and in different locations and not every attempt at being TF will succeed - which is why I always add cautionary notes ... I'm 8+ years into my regime and I know my bees pretty intimately - they are in my garden and I see them several times a day, I don't want to be cast as a hypocrite ...saying I don't treat my bees is true ... would I treat ? Yes if the need arose ... so far it has not.

 

[Madge]

As an example of what?

I said was treatment free. You were looking for examples of people who say they are treatment free, but actually aren't. I don't fall into that camp.

Oh! Misunderstandings are easy - although, I can't see what part of,

Yes, me, among many others I am sure

I could have misunderstood. As you said, I was looking for examples of people claiming to be treatment free, but in fact aren't, and you volunteered yourself.

 

[Madge]

In that post he answers your question "I wonder if ..."

Sorry Swarm, I don't know what post you're referring to. It's not post 264.

 

[Madge]

... It would be a last resort and not just a matter of rite at any time of the year and in any curcumstsnces. If you test and there is no significant load why would you want to treat ! ...

Of course, test! We all agree (I assume). That's not the issue. But you're not TF if you're willing to treat when a colony suffers.

 

[ericbeaumont]

Not everyone defines competence in beekeeping in terms of how much honey they are able to take from the bees. In fact I wouldn't view it as a very good definition at all, unless you are talking about honey farmers.

For you, and many others, perhaps. For some, beekeeping is all about bees. Both methods are fine.

Competence measured only in human terms misses the point, Bob. Bees seek to make as much honey as they can whenever they can for as long as they can. The fact that a decent beekeeper will take some of that yield is worth celebrating and is very good definition of the competency of both bees (though we knew that all along) and of beekeeper.

In short, for both parties it is all about honey.

 

[Swarm]

In post 264 where he quotes you, his answer is to the first part of your question not your mention of an individual.

 

[The Poot in Somerset]

That’s a bit pedantic MC. I feed my dog (left) on a “raw regime”. It doesn’t mean I’d let him starve if I was unable to get the raw food, or I wouldn’t feed him kibble if he became allergic to the raw.

 

[fiat500bee]

Of course, test! We all agree (I assume). That's not the issue. But you're not TF if you're willing to treat when a colony suffers.

Surely you can say you have a treatment-free approach to beekeeping if you have never treated the bees in 8+ years!!!!

 

[pargyle]

Of course, test! We all agree (I assume). That's not the issue. But you're not TF if you're willing to treat when a colony suffers.

When is treatment free treatment free ? - when you haven't treated your bees for varroa...end of ! If I haven't treated my bees I fail to see how you construe that I am not TF ?

 

[madasafish]

Sorry Fred, having retired I don’t want to reminded of that corporate bulls*it
It’s only true to some extent and can often lead to wrong conclusions.

Well if you are talking about how politicians measure things, I would agree..

But if politicians were measured on results, most would end up with large minus scores...


But in the real world if you measure the right things then you know that you have some controls.

When I see public service unions complaining about measurements I am extremely cynical.